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COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?


Ken Harrison
 

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada


John Kemplen
 

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)


On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada





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John Kemplen
 

Oops, sorry Ken, the old maps are on the National Library of Scotland website, not Scotland's Places or Canmore.

John



On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada





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Ken Harrison
 

Thank you, John.

I knew that most of those locales were close to Muthill, but I’m still wondering whether they would have been “part of” Muthill and so BDMs would have been recorded in the Muthill register.

And then, Gualnacarrie is still elusive ….
Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 3, 2020 3:46 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)

On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

 


Seymour Hosking
 

Hi Ken FamilySearch gives some clues on Muthill Parish and Comrie Parish.  If your family are like mine, they might have gone to different churches at different times.   And have you seen the Name Books? Not much there that helps.  And I can't find Gualnacarrie. regards Seymour
 


John Kemplen
 

Hi Ken

Muthill is a small place, smaller than Comrie and much smaller than Crieff.  I would be very surprised if these other places had ever come under Muthill for any administrative purpose.  The only parish I have come across that was for a while part of Muthill is Ardoch.

I have looked at a mid-1800s Ordnance Survey six inch to the mile map of the area and have not found anywhere that looks or sounds anything like Gualnacarrie.  I do not believe there are any earlier map series out there to give place names that were changed or disappeared later.  The name is not listed in Scotland's places or on Canmore (the archaeological site website).

John



On 04/04/2020 00:24, Ken Harrison wrote:

Thank you, John.

I knew that most of those locales were close to Muthill, but I’m still wondering whether they would have been “part of” Muthill and so BDMs would have been recorded in the Muthill register.

And then, Gualnacarrie is still elusive ….
Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 3, 2020 3:46 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)

On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

 





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Anne Burgess
 

I know it very well. When I was a child we often went to St Fillans (in the parish of Comrie), where the owner of the hotel was a friend of my parents. Later, my aunt and uncle retired to Comrie and I often visited them there. I also lived in Perth for several years and drove to Loch Earn every Sunday in the sailing season for much of that time. My job in Perth entailed knowing all of the county pretty well.

Comrie, Muthill, Monzievaird-and-Strowan and Trinity-Gask are all parishes in the County of Perth aka Perthshire. You can see a list and links to the Statistical Accounts of each of these at https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/county/Perth, and a link to a map of the county showing the boundaries of the parishes in 1832.

The parish of Comrie was not part of the parish of Muthill. However the village of Comrie is right at the eastern extremity of its parish, very close to the boundaries with Muthill, Monzievaird and Strowan.

However there could be places called Comrie in other parishes as well as the parish and village of that name in Perthshire. I know of one in the parish of Torryburn, Fife and one in the parish of Contin, Ross and Cromarty, but I am not aware of any others in other parishes in Perthshire.

You can see a list of places in the parish of Muthill at https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/perthshire-os-name-books-1859-1862/perthshire-volume-62/1 (there are transcriptions below the images of the information in the images).

Clathick is in the parish of Monzievaird and Strowan, about two miles east of the village of Comrie. Modern map https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NN8022
Mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=56.38360&lon=-3.93990&layers=5&b=1

Gualnacarrie continues to defeat me.If the reference is from the Muthill parish register, then it must be in that parish or very close to the parish boundary. What exactly does the extract say? Have you looked at other baptisms in the same family? Where do they say the family home was?


Josephine Conray
 

Hi Ken

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust.

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison
Sent: Saturday, 4 April 2020 7:52 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada




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Ken Harrison
 

I sent a reply to this, with an image, a couple of hours ago but it has not yet come to me.

Did anyone else see it?

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Josephine Conray
Sent: April 4, 2020 4:03 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Hi Ken

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust.

 


Ken Harrison
 

Thank you to all who have offered help so far.  I see now why I was puzzled.

I have viewed a film showing the Muthill parish registers (Spine of book clearly says “Muthill – B1704-1819; M1676-1761”) and page 242 appears to be headed Comrie in 1795.

Perhaps I have misread this word, but nothing else comes to mind.

I will try to attach part of the page, showing the heading and also 2 entries on the page which refer to Gualnacarrie.

Can any of you interpret this page differently?

Ken

 

Sent: April 4, 2020 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

Cheers

Josephine

 

Sent: Saturday, 4 April 2020 7:52 AM
Subject: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

Ken Harrison


Jack Mills
 

Ken,
This is a rather wild guess, so very possibly wrong.
There is a similar name to Gualnacarrie.

It looks to be a farmstead - Culnacuries.
And is SW of Comrie village.
(in part of Strowan Parish 1783) (Monzievaird & Strowan 1805)
It's quite near the parish borders of both Comrie and Muthill.
But the name seems to have disappeared by the 1860s.

https://maps.nls.uk/
(The Counties of Perth and Clackmannan. Jas. Stobbie 1783 / 1805)

Jack


Josephine Conray
 

Hi Ken.

 

I have found from the Ancestry records not sure if they are your family. There seems to be quite a few Archibald Sinclair & Margaret McKinzie /McKenzie families.

 

First family

Archibald  Sinclair & Margaret McKinzie /McKenzie Married 25 July 1791 Comrie, Perth, Scotland. FHL Film no 1040075

Children

Bettridge Baptism 2 June 1793 Comrie, Perth.  Film no 1040075

Donald Baptism 10 June 1795, Comrie, Perth, Film no 1040075  This would fit with your Baptism record

  

 

Second Family

Archibald  Sinclair & Margaret McKinzie /McKenzie Married 1801 Muthill Perth. Film no 1040132

Children

Archibald Baptism 4 April 1802 Muthill, Perth, Film no 1040132

John was born 9 August 1806 Bap 19 Aug 1806 Muthill Film no 1040132

 

 

Third Family

Archibald Sinclair & Margaret Sinclair Married 1 Aug 1774 Comrie, Perth.  Film no 1040075

Helen born 20 Aug 1774 Baptism 30 Oct 1774 Comrie, Perth Film no 1040075

 

 

This is an odd one out. I  thought he might belong to the first family but he has a different Film no.

Archibald  Sinclair & Margaret McKinzie /McKenzie

Malcolm Sinclair Baptism 24 March 1799 @ Monzievaird & Strowan Perth. Film no 1040335

 

I hope this is of some help

Josephine

Bris. Aust.

 

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison
Sent: Sunday, 5 April 2020 2:07 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Thank you to all who have offered help so far.  I see now why I was puzzled.

I have viewed a film showing the Muthill parish registers (Spine of book clearly says “Muthill – B1704-1819; M1676-1761”) and page 242 appears to be headed Comrie in 1795.

Perhaps I have misread this word, but nothing else comes to mind.

I will try to attach part of the page, showing the heading and also 2 entries on the page which refer to Gualnacarrie.

Can any of you interpret this page differently?

Ken

 

Sent: April 4, 2020 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

Cheers

Josephine

 

Sent: Saturday, 4 April 2020 7:52 AM
Subject: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

Ken Harrison




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Anne Burgess
 

Someone wrote: "Muthill is a small place, smaller than Comrie and much smaller than Crieff I would be very surprised if these other places had ever come under Muthill for any administrative purpose." That is absolutely correct.

However as we are talking about the late 19th century, there is no point whatsoever in considering the relative sizes of villages and towns in the 21st century. You have to get into the habit of thinking by parish. The parish was the basic administrative unit.

The map from FamilySearch is not at all helpful in this context. It shows Ardoch as a separate parish, but in the 1790s, when the (Old) Statistical Account was written, and in the 1840s when the New Statistical Account was written, it was part of the parish of Muthill. Look at the map at https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/county/Perth (noting the absence of Ardoch from the list of parishes) and read the accounts at https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Perth/Muthill

See also https://www.ardochparishchurch.org/ which explains that the parish of Ardoch was not disjoined from the parish of Muthill until 1857, though there was a Chapel of Ease there in the 1780s.

(Chapels of Ease were built in parishes where a significant number of people lived in the parish but many miles from the parish kirk. In this case, about five or six miles, which would have been a weary trek there and back on foot to attend Sunday services, especially in winter.)


John Kemplen
 

I have to agree with Jack that Culnacuries is by far the best contender for Gualnacarrie in areas that might have been associated with Muthill.  The exact view on the NLS website is:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400315
and I attach an extract from it.  On the extract, Comrie is towards the right hand side near the top.  Follow the Ruchill Water south west from Comrie until it goes across the join in the map, and Culnacuries is just below the river at that point.  The only named place in that vicinity that is still shown on the 1866 OS map is Auchinner, a short distance to the west of Culnacuries.

Well found, Jack.  I was too hung up on finding an Ordnance Survey map and did not look in the Counties of Scotland category in the map series dropdown menu.

John


On 05/04/2020 00:55, paisley.jack via groups.io wrote:

Ken,
This is a rather wild guess, so very possibly wrong.
There is a similar name to Gualnacarrie.

It looks to be a farmstead - Culnacuries.
And is SW of Comrie village.
(in part of Strowan Parish 1783) (Monzievaird & Strowan 1805)
It's quite near the parish borders of both Comrie and Muthill.
But the name seems to have disappeared by the 1860s.

https://maps.nls.uk/
(The Counties of Perth and Clackmannan. Jas. Stobbie 1783 / 1805)

Jack



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Ken Harrison
 

Thank you to the several persons who provided information on my request.

I am working thru them and will reply as I track down the leads.

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ken Harrison
Sent: April 3, 2020 2:52 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

_._,_._,_


Ken Harrison
 

I was about to reply to Jack that, although it took me a long time to find it, Culnacuries looks like the best bet to be Gualnacarrie.  It’s in the right general area, and who knows which spelling is “correct”.  Then John’s input cemented this.  Thank you to both!

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 5, 2020 3:05 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

I have to agree with Jack that Culnacuries is by far the best contender for Gualnacarrie in areas that might have been associated with Muthill.  The exact view on the NLS website is:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400315
and I attach an extract from it.  On the extract, Comrie is towards the right hand side near the top.  Follow the Ruchill Water south west from Comrie until it goes across the join in the map, and Culnacuries is just below the river at that point.  The only named place in that vicinity that is still shown on the 1866 OS map is Auchinner, a short distance to the west of Culnacuries.

Well found, Jack.  I was too hung up on finding an Ordnance Survey map and did not look in the Counties of Scotland category in the map series dropdown menu.

John

On 05/04/2020 00:55, paisley.jack via groups.io wrote:

Ken,
This is a rather wild guess, so very possibly wrong.
There is a similar name to Gualnacarrie.

It looks to be a farmstead - Culnacuries.
And is SW of Comrie village.
(in part of Strowan Parish 1783) (Monzievaird & Strowan 1805)
It's quite near the parish borders of both Comrie and Muthill.
But the name seems to have disappeared by the 1860s.

https://maps.nls.uk/
(The Counties of Perth and Clackmannan. Jas. Stobbie 1783 / 1805)

Jack


Ken Harrison
 

Thank you, Seymour.  The link to the name books is interesting.  It still doesn’t list Culnacurie, but then the advice is that it had disappeared before mid-19th Century.

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Seymour Hosking
Sent: April 4, 2020 12:04 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Hi Ken FamilySearch gives some clues on Muthill Parish and Comrie Parish.  If your family are like mine, they might have gone to different churches at different times.   And have you seen the Name Books? Not much there that helps.  And I can't find Gualnacarrie. regards Seymour
 


Edie Mc
 

Have you lookedin GENUKI Ken,



Edie McArthur



------ Original Message ------
From: "Ken Harrison" <kenharrison43@...>
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, 4 Apr, 2020 At 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Thank you, John.

I knew that most of those locales were close to Muthill, but I’m still wondering whether they would have been “part of” Muthill and so BDMs would have been recorded in the Muthill register.

And then, Gualnacarrie is still elusive ….
Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 3, 2020 3:46 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)

On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

 

   

--
EdieMc


Anne Burgess
 

I agree.

Bear in mind that the concept of 'correct spelling is largely a 20th century innovation. In the late 18th century there was no such thing as 'correct' spelling.

I looked at that map but didn't go far enough up Glen Artney.

It's one of the exclaves of the parish of Monzievaird and Strowan lying between the parish of Comrie and the parish of Muthill. There were quite a lot of fragmented parishes, but most of them were tidied up in a reorganisation of boundaries in about 1891.

As for the conflicting information in Ancestry, you need to check carefully the origin of each of the details listed. If it's a microfilm of the original parish registers, which are held in Edinburgh and available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, that is a primary source and reliable, although errors are not unknown. If it's from a submitted family tree, or if the marriage dates are a guess by some transcriber based on a date of birth of a child, they are not to be trusted. [b]Never, ever, believe anything you find online unless it's an image of an original primary source.[/b]


Ken Harrison
 

Anne and Josephine have touched on the original reason why I raised this question.
There is a lot of bad information on line and it can be a lot of work to sort the good out of the bad.
Josephine listed some of the information available on line for my supposed family in the Muthill area; some of it is good, some is bad., but I am trying to prove/disprove each item.

The Muthill records in the late 18th Century are a mixture of clear, ordered listings together with a confused jumble, with gaps. An explanation for the shortage of records was provided on this List in 2007 from "Col in Crieff" [are you still reading this, Col?]: Muthill OPRs were destroyed in the early [19th?] century and the re-written baptisms listed in family groupings which whilst useful is open to error . Finally do not forget Muthill (especially to the north) was a very Episcopalian area and produced a separate baptismal list reproduced by the Rev Hallen covering 1697 to 1847. In 2009 Col posted a more detailed message: "The Muthill OPRs were destroyed by a fire in the Parish Clerk's house! Whether he was sober or not is perhaps a moot point. He seems to have been replaced as a direct outcome. His successor went around gathering details from local residents and posting them in the new register hence the non chronological order that appears with entries in family groupings. There are of course other sources to be followed. Hallen's Episcopal Church (St James) register of baptisms is unique and shows the level of support in the area for the "old kirk". In nearby Crieff a considerable number of entries are not shown on ScotlandsPeople. These are mainly Catholic, Relief and Secession churches whose baptismal records are in Scottish Archives. Some appear as IGIs [on] Family Search web site".

My family's records fall into this group of re-constructed records.

Josephine suggested I list more details and so I will do that now, starting with the most recent first and working backwards in time, indicating records which I have proven (marked "P") by viewing the "original" OPR on microfilm (and have jpg copies filed), together with those which are shown on FamilySearch and Ancestry and not yet proven (marked "NY"), or searched for and found not to be in the original documents (marked "??"). I would appreciate ANY advice on the places or names shown below.

Starting with the marriage of my great-great-grandparents, found in both of their home parishes:
P - Eastwood, Renfrew:
"October 31st, James Murray - cloth lapper - Thornlybank - and Margaret Sinclair in Parish of Muthill were registered for proclamation for 3 days - the above were married at Pollokshaws, 20th November, 1829 by James Pringle, minister"
and
P - Muthill, OPR, 1829, page 138: "James Murray Par. of Eastwood & Margaret Seymour Masterton Sinclair in this Par. Proclaimed Nov 1, Nov 8th, Nov 15. [all other entries on page say in next column "Married", and most show the date and minister who performed marriage; this entry has this column blank, suggesting that it occurred elsewhere]"

G-G-gmother Margaret Sinclair:
P - In 1851 & 1861 shown born in BRACO; in 1871 and 1881 shown born in MUTHILL.
P - Muthill OPR, page 74, in a section in which family groups were recorded as much as 40 years after the baptism of some children, written at least as late as September 1806 (from one entry on the page):
Sinclair: Margaret Symore [sic] Mafterton Sinclair Daughter of the above Archibald Sinclair and Margaret MENZIE [sic] was born 23d April 1804
[NOTE the phrase "above Archibald"; 2 brothers are listed above, on same page, one born 1802 and the other 1806]:
P - "Sinclair: Archibald Son of Archibald Sinclair and Margaret McKENZIE in DUNDUFF was baptized the fourth of April Eighteen hundred and two.
P - John Sinclair their Son born Ninth bapd 17th Augt. 1806"

Margaret's parents' data has not been proven. The following persons may or may not be connected and may represent one, two or even three different couples (or two generations). The coincidence of names in a relatively small locale lends credence to their connection:

?? - IGI shows the marriage for Archibald and Margaret in 1801 in MUTHILL and a son Archibald born 4th of April in MUTHILL. [I have read Muthill register without finding these]

P - MONZIEVAIRD: (film 1040335): "1799 March 24th Archibald Sinclair and Margaret McKENZIE in CLATHICK their child Malcolm" [this is the standard wording in this book and does not appear to suggest they were not married. This register combines marriages & baptisms and I read back to 1790 w/o finding marriage.]

FamilySearch shows another possible match to 2 other children born before the supposed marriage above, christened in COMRIE in 1793 and 1795 from FHL Film 1040075:
NY - Archibald Sinclair & Margaret McKinzie /McKENZIE Married 25 July 1791 COMRIE
NY - Bettridge Baptism 2 June 1793 COMRIE
P - "COMRIE Janury 1795: 10 Archibald Sinclair in GUALNACARRIE and his spouse Margaret McKENZIE had their Lawful son Baptised named ---- Donald"
[FS incorrectly states this birth as June - this is the page I sent to List yesterday]

NY - Archibald born 21 April 1782 in MUCKHART to Henry SINCLAIR and MARY SHARP.

Film no 1040075:
NY - Archibald Sinclair & Margaret Sinclair Married 1 Aug 1774 COMRIE
NY - Helen born 20 Aug 1774 Baptism 30 Oct 1774 COMRIE

-----Original Message-----
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Anne Burgess via groups.io
Sent: April 6, 2020 4:05 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

I agree.

Bear in mind that the concept of 'correct spelling is largely a 20th century innovation. In the late 18th century there was no such thing as 'correct' spelling.

I looked at that map but didn't go far enough up Glen Artney.

It's one of the exclaves of the parish of Monzievaird and Strowan lying between the parish of Comrie and the parish of Muthill. There were quite a lot of fragmented parishes, but most of them were tidied up in a reorganisation of boundaries in about 1891.

As for the conflicting information in Ancestry, you need to check carefully the origin of each of the details listed. If it's a microfilm of the original parish registers, which are held in Edinburgh and available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, that is a primary source and reliable, although errors are not unknown. If it's from a submitted family tree, or if the marriage dates are a guess by some transcriber based on a date of birth of a child, they are not to be trusted. [b]Never, ever, believe anything you find online unless it's an image of an original primary source.[/b]