Date   

Re: Wishing you all

 

Happy holidays and best of health to you too, Lauraine!

And to us all. 

All the best,

Valorie

PS: Keep wearing your masks, keeping your distance, and washing your hands!


On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 4:34 PM Lauraine Syrnick <lauraine.syrnick@...> wrote:
A very good Christmas  or festive season and hoping the New Year bring us some relief from the Virus 19 pandemic.  It’s been a tough year, but we seem to have survived so HOPE is what we have.  Good health to all on the list.

Lauraine (Smith) Syrnick.   
Canada
 
--
http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her


Re: Merry Christmas everyone...

barbara wells
 

Hi Listers,
..and so say me!!
Barb


From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> on behalf of aberloursearch via groups.io <aberloursearch@...>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 December 2020 11:42 PM
To: anne.genlists@... <anne.genlists@...>; Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Merry Christmas everyone...
 
I would like to wish everyone on this list a very happy Christmas and hoping next year will be better for all of us than this year has been.



-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists@...>
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Sent: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 15:35
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

Thank you, Josephin.

I have tried every way I can think of to find this baptism on FamilySearch and separately in the IGI, so far without success.

Anne





Wishing you all

Lauraine Syrnick
 

A very good Christmas or festive season and hoping the New Year bring us some relief from the Virus 19 pandemic. It’s been a tough year, but we seem to have survived so HOPE is what we have. Good health to all on the list.

Lauraine (Smith) Syrnick.
Canada


Re: Merry Christmas everyone...

aberloursearch@...
 

I would like to wish everyone on this list a very happy Christmas and hoping next year will be better for all of us than this year has been.



-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists@...>
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Sent: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 15:35
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

Thank you, Josephin.

I have tried every way I can think of to find this baptism on FamilySearch and separately in the IGI, so far without success.

Anne





Re: Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

Anne Burgess
 

Thank you, Josephin.

I have tried every way I can think of to find this baptism on FamilySearch and separately in the IGI, so far without success.

Anne


Re: Duich Lotts

Edie Mc
 

Hi Morag,

I have  no idea where in Scotland (Islay or elsewhere) our McArthur’s are from other than Scotland. I know where our Johns wife came from in Scotland or at least where she was born and her parents birthplace, that was in Cambuslang in Lanarkshire and a some time Isabella Stevenson his wife went to Cathcart, Renfrew in1850 after giving birth to a daughter who remained in Cambuslang, with her grandparents, John Stevenson and his wife Christina Stevenson nee Ormiston.  The daughters name was Christina Stevenson Campbell, whose father was William Campbell. Christina married Robert Black at Campsie, Stirlingshire and she sadly died aged 28 a mother of four in Campsie, Stirlingshire.  John and Isabella were in Cathcart in 1856 at the time of their marriage banns, but married in Cambuslang.  So Cathcart is the last known place before leaving Scotland for Tasmania as Bounty Immigrants.

 

It is really frustrating as we have all we need for he Stevenson family and getting on ith the Ormiston family even the descendants of the Black family, but all DNA results for two of my three sons and their father are more leaning towards the McDonalds, with one each of of Campbell, McNeil, Carmichael, McKay, Munro.  The McDonald location are in the Caithness area.  The Carmichael in Lismore ad there is one for Sutherland. John hasn’t left any clues even though he didn’t die until 1910. If we had a birthday it would be different.  We haven’t one McArthur hit. All we know is he was born in Scotland from his death certificate. On his marriage certificate it just gives Duncan McArthur has his father and Margaret Smith as his mother. No baptism for him or marriage for his parents and no other child  born to that couple.  I have been hoping for a half sibling to even parent.  We have several matches for folk that ancestry say  we are related but to date none of those are coming up with shared matches on Ancestry.com. My second son has done up to a Bigy700, doesn’t help at all that I can see though.

 

As you said though Morag about allotments being n the edge of tow, that was like it was as we had a  bedsit a kilometre from Uxbridge, where the train station began and ended.

 

Regards

Edie

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Morag Fowler via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 21 December 2020 20:05
To: Scots@scotland-genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

Hi Edie,

 

Allotments in the UK tend to be at the edge of a town, all grouped together. I think what you described behind houses would be just back gardens being put to good use.

 

Did you know that there is a specific Islay group? Islay@Scotland-Genealogy. groups.io

 

Best wishes, Morag

 

 

 

 

 


--
EdieMc


Re: Duich Lotts

Glynn Currie
 

Thanks John and Ann,
Your assistance has been invaluable. You have helped me learn a great deal about the context in which my great grandparents lived. That is so interesting that it is difficult to express. I really appreciate your assistance.
Glynn



Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: "John Kemplen via groups.io" <john.kemplen@...>
Date: 2020-12-21 12:23 (GMT-08:00)
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

There are several references to a place called Dluich in databases of old farms, tenants and births on Islay.  Some of these mention Upper Dluich and Mil (or Miln) of Dluich.  One of the farm references says "Dluich (see Gortanilivorrie)", so I have looked at the OS First Series 6-inch map surveyed in 1878 (extract attached) at the location now called Gortanilivorrie.  It calls that location Gortanloist, and if you move east from there past the woodland you come to a place shown on the map as Lower Gluich.  Further to the south east (south west of Kilbraenan) is Upper Gluich, and a little way to the east of that is a stream called Allt Gluich.  That same stream is marked on the modern OS map as Allt Dluich.


On 21/12/2020 12:24, Anne Burgess via groups.io wrote:
There is no place called Dluich listed in the Ordnance Survey Name Books compiled in the mid-19th century. The consonants 'dl' do occu at the start of some Gaelic words, but I can't think of any other place names that start with 'dl'. However if a monoglot speaker of English were to pronounce it, the 'd' would come out something like 'g', and there were two crofts named Gluich in Islay, both now vanished. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.77978&lon=-6.19959&layers=5&b=1 and slide the blue button to the left to compare the map with the satellite view.

There are two references in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland to plans of Islay including Dluich, but the map reference given for one of them (136792, 665434) corresponds to a place which is now called Ayen or Ayen Cottage https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3665. The description of the other does not give a map reference, but it's likely to be the same place.

There are two listings of Duich in the Name Books for the parish of Kildalton. First the Duich River: "Applies to a River which forms the parish boundary between Kildalton Killarrow and Kilmeny. It takes the name of "Duich River" at Torra from thence it flows in a N.W. [North Westerly] direction, to where it joins the River Laggan about ¾ of a mile east from where the latter joins the sea at Laggan Bay. From its source to where it receives the name of "Duich River" it has various names in the different Localities in which it passes through". Second, Duich Lots (not Lotts): "A number of small holdings situate in the right of the road leading from Bowmore to Port Ellen, and about five miles from the former place. The property of John Ramsay Esqr Kildalton". 

Duich Farm still exists. It is at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3154

Duich Lotts was definitely neither a town nor a single farm. Nor was it a hamlet, which is a cluster of houses close together, differentiated from a village by not having a church. It was a crofting township, where each house was sited separately on its own few acres of land. 

It is quite common to find a dozen or so houses in the same area sharing a place name where a landowner had divided the land into smaller parcels and let them individually. This is what it looks like on the mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=55.70832&lon=-6.25669&layers=5&b=1 - you can see the satellite view by moving the blue button to the left. Note that it is spelled Duich Lots on that map. There are some photographs at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3354 and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3353. Having seen those I am not surprised that it has been abandoned because it looks like wet boggy land and would have been very hard to farm. 

A lot (or lott, if you prefer) is such a piece of land, which a crofter would have rented and on which he would have built a cottage (which means a simple building like the one here https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NB3149 that would have housed the family and their livestock under one roof). 

Allotments in this day and age are, very specifically, rented garden plots that are **not** beside the tenant's house, though in the 19th century the term was used for smallholdings. If there is planted ground next to and belonging to a house, it is called a garden. (For the avoidance of doubt, the distinction between a garden and a yard is that a yard is never cultivated. It may be unsurfaced but more often it is paved or cobbled or covered with tarmac or concrete.) Crofts would have a vegetable garden, and perhaps even a small flower garden, close to the house, and the rest of their land would have been arable or pasture. 

Allotments in the contemporary sense are not common. There are estimated to be about 330,000 allotments in England and Wales, which works out at something in the region of one allotment per 200 people. In Scotland there are even fewer - about 10,000, which is about one for every 500 people. 

As for Zoopla, it would not surprise me if the supposed house for sale there is a figment of the imagination of Zoopla's computer system, which hasn't even got the name right - it's added a comma betwen Duich and Lotts. Notice that all the financial figures are estimated, and there is no information about the supposed house, so the information is not based on an actual sale.



Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Duich Lotts

John Kemplen
 

There are several references to a place called Dluich in databases of old farms, tenants and births on Islay.  Some of these mention Upper Dluich and Mil (or Miln) of Dluich.  One of the farm references says "Dluich (see Gortanilivorrie)", so I have looked at the OS First Series 6-inch map surveyed in 1878 (extract attached) at the location now called Gortanilivorrie.  It calls that location Gortanloist, and if you move east from there past the woodland you come to a place shown on the map as Lower Gluich.  Further to the south east (south west of Kilbraenan) is Upper Gluich, and a little way to the east of that is a stream called Allt Gluich.  That same stream is marked on the modern OS map as Allt Dluich.


On 21/12/2020 12:24, Anne Burgess via groups.io wrote:
There is no place called Dluich listed in the Ordnance Survey Name Books compiled in the mid-19th century. The consonants 'dl' do occu at the start of some Gaelic words, but I can't think of any other place names that start with 'dl'. However if a monoglot speaker of English were to pronounce it, the 'd' would come out something like 'g', and there were two crofts named Gluich in Islay, both now vanished. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.77978&lon=-6.19959&layers=5&b=1 and slide the blue button to the left to compare the map with the satellite view.

There are two references in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland to plans of Islay including Dluich, but the map reference given for one of them (136792, 665434) corresponds to a place which is now called Ayen or Ayen Cottage https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3665. The description of the other does not give a map reference, but it's likely to be the same place.

There are two listings of Duich in the Name Books for the parish of Kildalton. First the Duich River: "Applies to a River which forms the parish boundary between Kildalton Killarrow and Kilmeny. It takes the name of "Duich River" at Torra from thence it flows in a N.W. [North Westerly] direction, to where it joins the River Laggan about ¾ of a mile east from where the latter joins the sea at Laggan Bay. From its source to where it receives the name of "Duich River" it has various names in the different Localities in which it passes through". Second, Duich Lots (not Lotts): "A number of small holdings situate in the right of the road leading from Bowmore to Port Ellen, and about five miles from the former place. The property of John Ramsay Esqr Kildalton". 

Duich Farm still exists. It is at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3154

Duich Lotts was definitely neither a town nor a single farm. Nor was it a hamlet, which is a cluster of houses close together, differentiated from a village by not having a church. It was a crofting township, where each house was sited separately on its own few acres of land. 

It is quite common to find a dozen or so houses in the same area sharing a place name where a landowner had divided the land into smaller parcels and let them individually. This is what it looks like on the mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=55.70832&lon=-6.25669&layers=5&b=1 - you can see the satellite view by moving the blue button to the left. Note that it is spelled Duich Lots on that map. There are some photographs at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3354 and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3353. Having seen those I am not surprised that it has been abandoned because it looks like wet boggy land and would have been very hard to farm. 

A lot (or lott, if you prefer) is such a piece of land, which a crofter would have rented and on which he would have built a cottage (which means a simple building like the one here https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NB3149 that would have housed the family and their livestock under one roof). 

Allotments in this day and age are, very specifically, rented garden plots that are **not** beside the tenant's house, though in the 19th century the term was used for smallholdings. If there is planted ground next to and belonging to a house, it is called a garden. (For the avoidance of doubt, the distinction between a garden and a yard is that a yard is never cultivated. It may be unsurfaced but more often it is paved or cobbled or covered with tarmac or concrete.) Crofts would have a vegetable garden, and perhaps even a small flower garden, close to the house, and the rest of their land would have been arable or pasture. 

Allotments in the contemporary sense are not common. There are estimated to be about 330,000 allotments in England and Wales, which works out at something in the region of one allotment per 200 people. In Scotland there are even fewer - about 10,000, which is about one for every 500 people. 

As for Zoopla, it would not surprise me if the supposed house for sale there is a figment of the imagination of Zoopla's computer system, which hasn't even got the name right - it's added a comma betwen Duich and Lotts. Notice that all the financial figures are estimated, and there is no information about the supposed house, so the information is not based on an actual sale.



Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Duich Lotts

Morag Fowler
 

Thanks for your very detailed information. I have no personal interest in Duich, but found your email very interesting.

Morag

On 21 Dec 2020, at 12:24, Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

There is no place called Dluich listed in the Ordnance Survey Name Books compiled in the mid-19th century. The consonants 'dl' do occu at the start of some Gaelic words, but I can't think of any other place names that start with 'dl'. However if a monoglot speaker of English were to pronounce it, the 'd' would come out something like 'g', and there were two crofts named Gluich in Islay, both now vanished. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.77978&lon=-6.19959&layers=5&b=1 and slide the blue button to the left to compare the map with the satellite view.

There are two references in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland to plans of Islay including Dluich, but the map reference given for one of them (136792, 665434) corresponds to a place which is now called Ayen or Ayen Cottage https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3665. The description of the other does not give a map reference, but it's likely to be the same place.

There are two listings of Duich in the Name Books for the parish of Kildalton. First the Duich River: "Applies to a River which forms the parish boundary between Kildalton Killarrow and Kilmeny. It takes the name of "Duich River" at Torra from thence it flows in a N.W. [North Westerly] direction, to where it joins the River Laggan about ¾ of a mile east from where the latter joins the sea at Laggan Bay. From its source to where it receives the name of "Duich River" it has various names in the different Localities in which it passes through". Second, Duich Lots (not Lotts): "A number of small holdings situate in the right of the road leading from Bowmore to Port Ellen, and about five miles from the former place. The property of John Ramsay Esqr Kildalton".

Duich Farm still exists. It is at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3154

Duich Lotts was definitely neither a town nor a single farm. Nor was it a hamlet, which is a cluster of houses close together, differentiated from a village by not having a church. It was a crofting township, where each house was sited separately on its own few acres of land.

It is quite common to find a dozen or so houses in the same area sharing a place name where a landowner had divided the land into smaller parcels and let them individually. This is what it looks like on the mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=55.70832&lon=-6.25669&layers=5&b=1 - you can see the satellite view by moving the blue button to the left. Note that it is spelled Duich Lots on that map. There are some photographs at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3354 and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3353. Having seen those I am not surprised that it has been abandoned because it looks like wet boggy land and would have been very hard to farm.

A lot (or lott, if you prefer) is such a piece of land, which a crofter would have rented and on which he would have built a cottage (which means a simple building like the one here https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NB3149 that would have housed the family and their livestock under one roof).

Allotments in this day and age are, very specifically, rented garden plots that are **not** beside the tenant's house, though in the 19th century the term was used for smallholdings. If there is planted ground next to and belonging to a house, it is called a garden. (For the avoidance of doubt, the distinction between a garden and a yard is that a yard is never cultivated. It may be unsurfaced but more often it is paved or cobbled or covered with tarmac or concrete.) Crofts would have a vegetable garden, and perhaps even a small flower garden, close to the house, and the rest of their land would have been arable or pasture.

Allotments in the contemporary sense are not common. There are estimated to be about 330,000 allotments in England and Wales, which works out at something in the region of one allotment per 200 people. In Scotland there are even fewer - about 10,000, which is about one for every 500 people.

As for Zoopla, it would not surprise me if the supposed house for sale there is a figment of the imagination of Zoopla's computer system, which hasn't even got the name right - it's added a comma betwen Duich and Lotts. Notice that all the financial figures are estimated, and there is no information about the supposed house, so the information is not based on an actual sale.





Re: Duich Lotts

Anne Burgess
 

There is no place called Dluich listed in the Ordnance Survey Name Books compiled in the mid-19th century. The consonants 'dl' do occu at the start of some Gaelic words, but I can't think of any other place names that start with 'dl'. However if a monoglot speaker of English were to pronounce it, the 'd' would come out something like 'g', and there were two crofts named Gluich in Islay, both now vanished. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.77978&lon=-6.19959&layers=5&b=1 and slide the blue button to the left to compare the map with the satellite view.

There are two references in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland to plans of Islay including Dluich, but the map reference given for one of them (136792, 665434) corresponds to a place which is now called Ayen or Ayen Cottage https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3665. The description of the other does not give a map reference, but it's likely to be the same place.

There are two listings of Duich in the Name Books for the parish of Kildalton. First the Duich River: "Applies to a River which forms the parish boundary between Kildalton Killarrow and Kilmeny. It takes the name of "Duich River" at Torra from thence it flows in a N.W. [North Westerly] direction, to where it joins the River Laggan about ¾ of a mile east from where the latter joins the sea at Laggan Bay. From its source to where it receives the name of "Duich River" it has various names in the different Localities in which it passes through". Second, Duich Lots (not Lotts): "A number of small holdings situate in the right of the road leading from Bowmore to Port Ellen, and about five miles from the former place. The property of John Ramsay Esqr Kildalton".

Duich Farm still exists. It is at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3154

Duich Lotts was definitely neither a town nor a single farm. Nor was it a hamlet, which is a cluster of houses close together, differentiated from a village by not having a church. It was a crofting township, where each house was sited separately on its own few acres of land.

It is quite common to find a dozen or so houses in the same area sharing a place name where a landowner had divided the land into smaller parcels and let them individually. This is what it looks like on the mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=55.70832&lon=-6.25669&layers=5&b=1 - you can see the satellite view by moving the blue button to the left. Note that it is spelled Duich Lots on that map. There are some photographs at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3354 and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NR3353. Having seen those I am not surprised that it has been abandoned because it looks like wet boggy land and would have been very hard to farm.

A lot (or lott, if you prefer) is such a piece of land, which a crofter would have rented and on which he would have built a cottage (which means a simple building like the one here https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NB3149 that would have housed the family and their livestock under one roof).

Allotments in this day and age are, very specifically, rented garden plots that are **not** beside the tenant's house, though in the 19th century the term was used for smallholdings. If there is planted ground next to and belonging to a house, it is called a garden. (For the avoidance of doubt, the distinction between a garden and a yard is that a yard is never cultivated. It may be unsurfaced but more often it is paved or cobbled or covered with tarmac or concrete.) Crofts would have a vegetable garden, and perhaps even a small flower garden, close to the house, and the rest of their land would have been arable or pasture.

Allotments in the contemporary sense are not common. There are estimated to be about 330,000 allotments in England and Wales, which works out at something in the region of one allotment per 200 people. In Scotland there are even fewer - about 10,000, which is about one for every 500 people.

As for Zoopla, it would not surprise me if the supposed house for sale there is a figment of the imagination of Zoopla's computer system, which hasn't even got the name right - it's added a comma betwen Duich and Lotts. Notice that all the financial figures are estimated, and there is no information about the supposed house, so the information is not based on an actual sale.


Re: Duich Lotts

Edie Mc
 

No they were called allottments and they were behind the back fence.  Allottments are very common in the UK. They rent the space.

Edie

I was born in England but we didn’t have an allotment.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Morag Fowler via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 21 December 2020 20:05
To: Scots@scotland-genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

Hi Edie,

 

Allotments in the UK tend to be at the edge of a town, all grouped together. I think what you described behind houses would be just back gardens being put to good use.

 

Did you know that there is a specific Islay group? Islay@Scotland-Genealogy. groups.io

 

Best wishes, Morag

 

 

 

 

 


--
EdieMc


Re: Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

Josephine Conray
 

Hi Ann

The different spellings for Euphans I have see in this family are Eupham, Euphana, Euphan, Euphin, Euphemia and one had Emiline. Born 11 Jan 1762 Bowden, Roxburgh Scotland

Cheers
Josephine
Qld

-----Original Message-----
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Anne Burgess via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2020 8:56 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

The union of the parish of Ashkirk to the parish of Selkirk took place in 1986 (see http://selkirkparish.church/about-us/congregation-and-parish/), so in in relation to baptisms and banns in the Church of Scotland registers in the middle of the 18th century it is completely irrelevant (I am surprised that the Borders FHS sees fit to say so, because they must be aware that mentioning a parish merger that took place in 1986 is not useful information for anyone looking for records over two centuries older). They were entirely separate parishes at that time. The implication of this is that if anyone mentioned in the registers of a particular parish lived in a different parish, the entry in the register will almost always say which parish they lived in.

Second, all the surviving registers of the Church of Scotland have been digitised and are available at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. As part of the legislation that set up the statutory civil registration system the Church of Scotland was required by law to hand over all its surviving pre-1855 registers to the Registrar General for Scotland so that they would be preserved and safeguarded for the future. This is why all this information is now available in one place.

However other denominations were not compelled to hand over their registers. Many of these, however, have since found their way into various archives.

The registers of dissenting denominations do not necessarily always cover the same geographical areas as the Church of Scotland parish registers, because their congregations were often smaller and a single place of worship might draw its congregation from several Chuch of Scotland parishes. This means that the places people lived are lkely to be spread over a wider area than is the case in the Church of Scotland registers.

I am mystified by the one you saw on microfilm, however. I have tried many times to find the baptism of Euphans Thomson in both the IGI and the FS general records, without success, so I can't follow the trail from that event back to the source of the information. It isn't listed in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland (https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/catalogues-and-indexes). There is a register of the Midholm (Midlem) United Original Secession Church, with the following description: "The congregation of Midholm (or Midlem) belonged to the Antiburgher branch of the Secession church, and was first established in 1742, the year in which Patrick Matthew the first minister of the charge was ordained. The church was built a number of years thereafter in 1746. The congregation sat within the Presbytery of Melrose. In 1820 the congregation became part of the United Original Secession Church, and remained as such until 1938 when the congregation was dissolved." However the catalogue listing (CH3/234) says that it covers only the period from 1845 to 1938). This register is now in the Scottish Borders Archive and Local History Centre in Hawick, but can be viewed as part of the 'Virtual Volumes' at the National Records of Scptland and in other local archives that has access to the VV system, but as it doesn't cover the 18th century it isn't much use in this instance.

I would be very interested indeed in finding out how the LDS got the register you saw on microfilm, where the original book is, and most of all why I can't find the baptism of Euphans Thomson (or her brother, but I concentrated on her because her name is much less common) in the online indexes on the FS web site.

Anne


Re: Duich Lotts

Morag Fowler
 

Hi Edie,

Allotments in the UK tend to be at the edge of a town, all grouped together. I think what you described behind houses would be just back gardens being put to good use.

Did you know that there is a specific Islay group? Islay@Scotland-Genealogy. groups.io

Best wishes, Morag


Re: Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

Josephine Conray
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Anne Burgess via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2020 8:56 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

The union of the parish of Ashkirk to the parish of Selkirk took place in 1986 (see http://selkirkparish.church/about-us/congregation-and-parish/), so in in relation to baptisms and banns in the Church of Scotland registers in the middle of the 18th century it is completely irrelevant (I am surprised that the Borders FHS sees fit to say so, because they must be aware that mentioning a parish merger that took place in 1986 is not useful information for anyone looking for records over two centuries older). They were entirely separate parishes at that time. The implication of this is that if anyone mentioned in the registers of a particular parish lived in a different parish, the entry in the register will almost always say which parish they lived in.

Second, all the surviving registers of the Church of Scotland have been digitised and are available at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. As part of the legislation that set up the statutory civil registration system the Church of Scotland was required by law to hand over all its surviving pre-1855 registers to the Registrar General for Scotland so that they would be preserved and safeguarded for the future. This is why all this information is now available in one place.

However other denominations were not compelled to hand over their registers. Many of these, however, have since found their way into various archives.

The registers of dissenting denominations do not necessarily always cover the same geographical areas as the Church of Scotland parish registers, because their congregations were often smaller and a single place of worship might draw its congregation from several Chuch of Scotland parishes. This means that the places people lived are lkely to be spread over a wider area than is the case in the Church of Scotland registers.

I am mystified by the one you saw on microfilm, however. I have tried many times to find the baptism of Euphans Thomson in both the IGI and the FS general records, without success, so I can't follow the trail from that event back to the source of the information. It isn't listed in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland (https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/catalogues-and-indexes). There is a register of the Midholm (Midlem) United Original Secession Church, with the following description: "The congregation of Midholm (or Midlem) belonged to the Antiburgher branch of the Secession church, and was first established in 1742, the year in which Patrick Matthew the first minister of the charge was ordained. The church was built a number of years thereafter in 1746. The congregation sat within the Presbytery of Melrose. In 1820 the congregation became part of the United Original Secession Church, and remained as such until 1938 when the congregation was dissolved." However the catalogue listing (CH3/234) says that it covers only the period from 1845 to 1938). This register is now in the Scottish Borders Archive and Local History Centre in Hawick, but can be viewed as part of the 'Virtual Volumes' at the National Records of Scptland and in other local archives that has access to the VV system, but as it doesn't cover the 18th century it isn't much use in this instance.

I would be very interested indeed in finding out how the LDS got the register you saw on microfilm, where the original book is, and most of all why I can't find the baptism of Euphans Thomson (or her brother, but I concentrated on her because her name is much less common) in the online indexes on the FS web site.

Anne


Re: Duich Lotts

Edie Mc
 

The lotts sound a little like the Allottments that some English homes have at the back, as a lot of English gardens are small especially in the tenement type homes joined together.  We rented a home in Uxbridge, along Oxford Road, in 1996 on a working holiday from Austalia and at the back was this allotment and there were several joined to other neighbours. Vegetables were grown there mostly.

Edie

 

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From: Glynn Currie
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2020 21:35
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

Thanks once again John.

Glynn

 

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: "John Kemplen via groups.io" <john.kemplen@...>

Date: 2020-12-20 02:09 (GMT-08:00)

To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io

Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

Hi Glynn

The link that Diane gave you is a good one which accurately describes Duich Lots as a group of agricultural holdings.  In English terminology it might be described as a hamlet, but it would not qualify as a village and certainly not as a town.  The agricultural holdings would not have been large enough to warrant the name "farm".  I think a collection of crofts might be the nearest thing to an accurate description.

The Zoopla reference is from a highly automated modern property database, and I am afraid that in this case it may be rather misleading in including the word "Duich".  The location marked on the Zoopla map is NOT Duich or Duich Lots.  It is in an area that Islay folk may call just "the Lotts".  I believe the unnamed road that it refers to is probably the road from Glenegedale on the A846 up to the B8016 between Glenegedale Lots and Glenegedalemoor Lots.  That road does indeed have several occupied houses on it, but the area is very unlikely to have ever been thought of as Duich or Duich Lots.  No buildings on Duich Lots are inhabited and they are all in a ruined state; they would not feature in a modern property database.

Regards

John

 

On 20/12/2020 06:43, Glynn Currie wrote:

Thanks Edie. That is interesting. Might have to break open the old piggy bank to rebuy the old farm!🤔

 

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Edie Mc <eamca1944@...>

Date: 2020-12-19 22:13 (GMT-08:00)

Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

There is also a house sale at Duich, Lotts. Islay, Scotland It is situated on an un named road with 15 houses on it.  Could be where your ancestor lived in one of  the fifteen houses.

Edie

 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/duich/lotts/isle-of-islay/pa42-7dd/17937583

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Glynn Currie
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2020 12:11
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io; John Kemplen
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

A question that has just occured to me after reading John's reply: Would Duich Lotts be a name that applied to a group of several farms developed near one another, or would it be a single farm worked by one family? Would it be termed a croft?

Glynn

 

 


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EdieMc

 

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EdieMc


Re: Duich Lotts

Glynn Currie
 

I love the information John. Thank you. This whole thread is a bit of a break through for me so I am quite excited by the many responses.
Glynn



Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: John Kemplen <john.kemplen@...>
Date: 2020-12-20 07:47 (GMT-08:00)
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io, Glynn Currie <glynn.currie@...>
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

Sorry to drip-feed information.  I have asked on the "Old Islay" Facebook site what at "lot" is in this context and was directed to this web page:
https://www.croftingyear.org.uk/the-township-system.asp

It did not display correctly on my browser (pictures covering text).  I could find the text by selecting the page and copying it into Word.  In case you have the same problem, here is the relevant text from that page:
"The system of crofting as we know it today began to take shape as a result of the Highland Clearances. A crofting township was made up of several families who worked the same croft land. Land was allocated by a 'run-rig' system which meant that each crofter was given strips of land. These strips were reallocated annually to ensure that the good and the bad land was shared equally. This system did not encourage improvement of the soil and was replaced by a 'lot' system where each crofter was given his own individual lot of land. The lots were kept deliberately small by landlords so that the tenants would be forced to take on additional work for the landlord."

Regards

John


On 19/12/2020 23:30, John Kemplen wrote:

Hello Glynn

The place east of Bowmore is, a believe, usually known as Dluich.  I have never seen anywhere else beginning with "Dl" and I have no idea how to say it, but there it is.

The place your people came from is south of Bowmore.  Duich is on the A846 ("the Low Road") where it crosses the Duich River, and Duich Lots (or Lotts) is about a mile east of there, just over half way to the B8016 ("the High Road") and a little way north of Loch Dhomhnull.  It is still named on good maps, but nobody lives there any more.  You can see some rather sad pictures of some of the abandoned cottages there if you follow this link:
http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6649

There are a few other places called Lotts or Lots in that area - Glenegedale Lots, Glenegedalemoor Lots, Glenmachrie Lots - all on very peaty land between Bowmore and Port Ellen.  I do not know what the term means, but it seems to relate to outlying land associated with the place with the name without "Lotts" after it, often rather poor land at that.

I have found that the best website for finding very detailed modern maps of Scotland is Canmore.  Start here:
https://canmore.org.uk/site/search/result?SITECOUNTRY=0&view=map
and zoom in on Islay.  Because it is really meant for finding sites of historical interest the detail can be obscured by blue blobs marking the sites.  To get rid of them, just go to the menu inset into the top right corner of the map, click on "Canmore" and then on the "Search Results" box.

I hope this helps.  If you still have difficulty finding the location or have other Islay-related questions, do not hesitate to ask.

Regards

John



On 19/12/2020 20:58, Glynn Currie wrote:

Both my paternal grandparents were born on Islay. I have been told about the Island ever since I was very young. Grampa was John Currie, born in 1879 at Duich Lotts. His father was Donald Currie and his mother was Catherine McFadyen.
I would like to locate the farm where he was born and learn a bit about it. On an old map of Islay that I found on the internet I can see two places named Duich. One is located close to Bowmore, a little north and east. The other is located south and east of Bowmore, near the present day airport.
Would anyone know anything about these two locations which would allow me to learn which place was my grandfather's home?



Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Duich Lotts

John Kemplen
 

Sorry to drip-feed information.  I have asked on the "Old Islay" Facebook site what at "lot" is in this context and was directed to this web page:
https://www.croftingyear.org.uk/the-township-system.asp

It did not display correctly on my browser (pictures covering text).  I could find the text by selecting the page and copying it into Word.  In case you have the same problem, here is the relevant text from that page:
"The system of crofting as we know it today began to take shape as a result of the Highland Clearances. A crofting township was made up of several families who worked the same croft land. Land was allocated by a 'run-rig' system which meant that each crofter was given strips of land. These strips were reallocated annually to ensure that the good and the bad land was shared equally. This system did not encourage improvement of the soil and was replaced by a 'lot' system where each crofter was given his own individual lot of land. The lots were kept deliberately small by landlords so that the tenants would be forced to take on additional work for the landlord."

Regards

John


On 19/12/2020 23:30, John Kemplen wrote:

Hello Glynn

The place east of Bowmore is, a believe, usually known as Dluich.  I have never seen anywhere else beginning with "Dl" and I have no idea how to say it, but there it is.

The place your people came from is south of Bowmore.  Duich is on the A846 ("the Low Road") where it crosses the Duich River, and Duich Lots (or Lotts) is about a mile east of there, just over half way to the B8016 ("the High Road") and a little way north of Loch Dhomhnull.  It is still named on good maps, but nobody lives there any more.  You can see some rather sad pictures of some of the abandoned cottages there if you follow this link:
http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6649

There are a few other places called Lotts or Lots in that area - Glenegedale Lots, Glenegedalemoor Lots, Glenmachrie Lots - all on very peaty land between Bowmore and Port Ellen.  I do not know what the term means, but it seems to relate to outlying land associated with the place with the name without "Lotts" after it, often rather poor land at that.

I have found that the best website for finding very detailed modern maps of Scotland is Canmore.  Start here:
https://canmore.org.uk/site/search/result?SITECOUNTRY=0&view=map
and zoom in on Islay.  Because it is really meant for finding sites of historical interest the detail can be obscured by blue blobs marking the sites.  To get rid of them, just go to the menu inset into the top right corner of the map, click on "Canmore" and then on the "Search Results" box.

I hope this helps.  If you still have difficulty finding the location or have other Islay-related questions, do not hesitate to ask.

Regards

John



On 19/12/2020 20:58, Glynn Currie wrote:

Both my paternal grandparents were born on Islay. I have been told about the Island ever since I was very young. Grampa was John Currie, born in 1879 at Duich Lotts. His father was Donald Currie and his mother was Catherine McFadyen.
I would like to locate the farm where he was born and learn a bit about it. On an old map of Islay that I found on the internet I can see two places named Duich. One is located close to Bowmore, a little north and east. The other is located south and east of Bowmore, near the present day airport.
Would anyone know anything about these two locations which would allow me to learn which place was my grandfather's home?



Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Thomson/Thompson in the Borders of Scotland.

Anne Burgess
 

The union of the parish of Ashkirk to the parish of Selkirk took place in 1986 (see http://selkirkparish.church/about-us/congregation-and-parish/), so in in relation to baptisms and banns in the Church of Scotland registers in the middle of the 18th century it is completely irrelevant (I am surprised that the Borders FHS sees fit to say so, because they must be aware that mentioning a parish merger that took place in 1986 is not useful information for anyone looking for records over two centuries older). They were entirely separate parishes at that time. The implication of this is that if anyone mentioned in the registers of a particular parish lived in a different parish, the entry in the register will almost always say which parish they lived in.

Second, all the surviving registers of the Church of Scotland have been digitised and are available at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. As part of the legislation that set up the statutory civil registration system the Church of Scotland was required by law to hand over all its surviving pre-1855 registers to the Registrar General for Scotland so that they would be preserved and safeguarded for the future. This is why all this information is now available in one place.

However other denominations were not compelled to hand over their registers. Many of these, however, have since found their way into various archives.

The registers of dissenting denominations do not necessarily always cover the same geographical areas as the Church of Scotland parish registers, because their congregations were often smaller and a single place of worship might draw its congregation from several Chuch of Scotland parishes. This means that the places people lived are lkely to be spread over a wider area than is the case in the Church of Scotland registers.

I am mystified by the one you saw on microfilm, however. I have tried many times to find the baptism of Euphans Thomson in both the IGI and the FS general records, without success, so I can't follow the trail from that event back to the source of the information. It isn't listed in the catalogue of the National Records of Scotland (https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/catalogues-and-indexes). There is a register of the Midholm (Midlem) United Original Secession Church, with the following description: "The congregation of Midholm (or Midlem) belonged to the Antiburgher branch of the Secession church, and was first established in 1742, the year in which Patrick Matthew the first minister of the charge was ordained. The church was built a number of years thereafter in 1746. The congregation sat within the Presbytery of Melrose. In 1820 the congregation became part of the United Original Secession Church, and remained as such until 1938 when the congregation was dissolved." However the catalogue listing (CH3/234) says that it covers only the period from 1845 to 1938). This register is now in the Scottish Borders Archive and Local History Centre in Hawick, but can be viewed as part of the 'Virtual Volumes' at the National Records of Scptland and in other local archives that has access to the VV system, but as it doesn't cover the 18th century it isn't much use in this instance.

I would be very interested indeed in finding out how the LDS got the register you saw on microfilm, where the original book is, and most of all why I can't find the baptism of Euphans Thomson (or her brother, but I concentrated on her because her name is much less common) in the online indexes on the FS web site.

Anne


Re: Duich Lotts

Glynn Currie
 

Thanks once again John.
Glynn



Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: "John Kemplen via groups.io" <john.kemplen@...>
Date: 2020-12-20 02:09 (GMT-08:00)
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

Hi Glynn

The link that Diane gave you is a good one which accurately describes Duich Lots as a group of agricultural holdings.  In English terminology it might be described as a hamlet, but it would not qualify as a village and certainly not as a town.  The agricultural holdings would not have been large enough to warrant the name "farm".  I think a collection of crofts might be the nearest thing to an accurate description.

The Zoopla reference is from a highly automated modern property database, and I am afraid that in this case it may be rather misleading in including the word "Duich".  The location marked on the Zoopla map is NOT Duich or Duich Lots.  It is in an area that Islay folk may call just "the Lotts".  I believe the unnamed road that it refers to is probably the road from Glenegedale on the A846 up to the B8016 between Glenegedale Lots and Glenegedalemoor Lots.  That road does indeed have several occupied houses on it, but the area is very unlikely to have ever been thought of as Duich or Duich Lots.  No buildings on Duich Lots are inhabited and they are all in a ruined state; they would not feature in a modern property database.

Regards

John


On 20/12/2020 06:43, Glynn Currie wrote:
Thanks Edie. That is interesting. Might have to break open the old piggy bank to rebuy the old farm!🤔



Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Edie Mc <eamca1944@...>
Date: 2020-12-19 22:13 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

There is also a house sale at Duich, Lotts. Islay, Scotland It is situated on an un named road with 15 houses on it.  Could be where your ancestor lived in one of  the fifteen houses.

Edie

 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/duich/lotts/isle-of-islay/pa42-7dd/17937583

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Glynn Currie
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2020 12:11
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io; John Kemplen
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

A question that has just occured to me after reading John's reply: Would Duich Lotts be a name that applied to a group of several farms developed near one another, or would it be a single farm worked by one family? Would it be termed a croft?

Glynn

 

 


--
EdieMc

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Duich Lotts

John Kemplen
 

Hi Glynn

The link that Diane gave you is a good one which accurately describes Duich Lots as a group of agricultural holdings.  In English terminology it might be described as a hamlet, but it would not qualify as a village and certainly not as a town.  The agricultural holdings would not have been large enough to warrant the name "farm".  I think a collection of crofts might be the nearest thing to an accurate description.

The Zoopla reference is from a highly automated modern property database, and I am afraid that in this case it may be rather misleading in including the word "Duich".  The location marked on the Zoopla map is NOT Duich or Duich Lots.  It is in an area that Islay folk may call just "the Lotts".  I believe the unnamed road that it refers to is probably the road from Glenegedale on the A846 up to the B8016 between Glenegedale Lots and Glenegedalemoor Lots.  That road does indeed have several occupied houses on it, but the area is very unlikely to have ever been thought of as Duich or Duich Lots.  No buildings on Duich Lots are inhabited and they are all in a ruined state; they would not feature in a modern property database.

Regards

John


On 20/12/2020 06:43, Glynn Currie wrote:
Thanks Edie. That is interesting. Might have to break open the old piggy bank to rebuy the old farm!🤔



Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Edie Mc <eamca1944@...>
Date: 2020-12-19 22:13 (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

There is also a house sale at Duich, Lotts. Islay, Scotland It is situated on an un named road with 15 houses on it.  Could be where your ancestor lived in one of  the fifteen houses.

Edie

 

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/duich/lotts/isle-of-islay/pa42-7dd/17937583

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Glynn Currie
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2020 12:11
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io; John Kemplen
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Duich Lotts

 

A question that has just occured to me after reading John's reply: Would Duich Lotts be a name that applied to a group of several farms developed near one another, or would it be a single farm worked by one family? Would it be termed a croft?

Glynn

 

 


--
EdieMc

Virus-free. www.avast.com

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