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Re: illigitmacy
Other terms for illegitimacy were 'base born', 'natural born' or 'bastard'. It was always noted in the register one way or another. Jocelyn
On 26/02/2020 7:53 am, Carolyn Perkes
wrote:
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Re: handfasting
No, handfasting is not a myth - it was a Celtic custom done in front of witnesses. Cheaper than a church ceremony.
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Jocelyn
On 26/02/2020 7:24 am, Lauraine Syrnick wrote:
Am not sure about this, but was told by a Scottish lady that “hand fasting” was popular in Scotland. Apparently that is two people could say they were married (unsure if witnesses were required) and usually until a baby was to be born shortly did not go through the formal process of marrying before a minister. Unsure how the church dealt with this either?? A church sanctioned marriage costed money and many people did not have the funds. If this is a myth, please let me know.
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Re: illigitmacy
Carolyn Perkes <cperkes@...>
There is an explanation of "irregular" marriages (marriages by declaration) here: https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-scotland Carolyn
On 25/02/20 16:24, Lauraine Syrnick <lauraine.syrnick@...> wrote:
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Re: illigitmacy
Lauraine Syrnick
Am not sure about this, but was told by a Scottish lady that “hand fasting” was popular in Scotland. Apparently that is two people could say they were married (unsure if witnesses were required) and usually until a baby was to be born shortly did not go through the formal process of marrying before a minister. Unsure how the church dealt with this either?? A church sanctioned marriage costed money and many people did not have the funds. If this is a myth, please let me know.
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Lauraine
On Feb 25, 2020, at 1:47, LorneandJudy <lorneanderson@shaw.ca> wrote:
The use of the word “illegitimate” was discontinued after 1918.
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Re: illigitmacy
DixieAC
Interesting. Did they replace it with something or just give name of mom and — if known — the father?
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Dixie Cutler
On Feb 24, 2020, at 11:47 PM, LorneandJudy <lorneanderson@shaw.ca> wrote:
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Re: illigitmacy
LorneandJudy
The use of the word “illegitimate” was discontinued after 1918.
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Judy ANderson nee Stables
On Feb 24, 2020, at 8:06 PM, Edie Mc <eamca1944@bigpond.com> wrote:
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Re: This site may be of interest to some of the McArthurs
Lauraine Syrnick
So sorry, Edie. Read the name wrong and it is MacGregor not MacArthur. Most annoying as I grew up in a town called MacGregor and misread it. Getting too old, I guess. ): really don’t feel that way, but when I miss the obvious have to wonder.
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Lauraine
On Feb 24, 2020, at 22:08, Edie Mc <eamca1944@bigpond.com> wrote:
Hi Laauraine, I couldnt see any McArthurs , can you point us where you saw a McArthur please. It is a very interesting website and names a lot of people caught up in the diseases of he times. LIke Chloera.
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Re: Need names of some old Farms c1857 in Cathcart, Renfrewshire RFW, Sct
DixieAC
You missed “base born” ;-)
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Re: This site may be of interest to some of the McArthurs
Hi Laauraine, I couldnt see any McArthurs , can you point us where you saw a McArthur please. It is a very interesting website and names a lot of people caught up in the diseases of he times. LIke Chloera.
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Edie Mc
------ Original Message ------
From: "Lauraine Syrnick" <lauraine.syrnick@gmail.com> To: "Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io" <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, 25 Feb, 2020 At 10:41 AM Subject: [ScotGen] This site may be of interest to some of the McArthurs While looking up mining, came across this site which may be of interest to some of the McArthurs on this list. Lauraine (Smith) Syrnick http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/468.html -- EdieMc
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Re: illigitmacy
I do have an illegitimate child born 1850 and it does say Illegitimate and have seen others that early as illigitmate as well.
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Edie Mc
------ Original Message ------
From: "Lauraine Syrnick" <lauraine.syrnick@gmail.com> To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io Sent: Tuesday, 25 Feb, 2020 At 11:40 AM Subject: [ScotGen] illigitmacy Hmm - no so sure I agree with you. In the 1890-1900, an illegitimate child is definitely noted on its birth certificate as “illegitimate" aa there is one in my family (that I know of). I will do some research on this so thanks for bringing it up. Lauraine -- EdieMc
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Re: Need names of some old Farms c1857 in Cathcart, Renfrewshire RFW, Sct
Thank you for your input. I did just recently a a fortnight ago, printout some of the Cathcart Farms from the website yousuggested as someon on the list had also suggested it. But I need to study them. I think I was looking for familiar names of people. Did note a Revd Smith, since I am short of a mother Margaret Smith for our John who was a Lay preacher over here. I was hoping there had been anconnection there. So far havent found any firm Smiths in our ancestry.com matches as yet nor any firm McArthurs. Found McArthurs in matches trees, but not necessarily to do with us. Can only see one Cathcart John McArthur 1828 in the 1851 census, but on Scotlnds people it is Cartsdyke not Cathcart. That is where the Lawful son came into it as we had looked on Scotlands People and fouud a Duncan McArthur but with a Janet Workman and I had wondered if she may have been a second wife to Duncan and Margaret had died. So I looked for the birth of the John and it said he was the lawful son of Duncan and Janet McArthur. So that was that. I thought hat maybe it meant adopte, but i dont think there were adoptions that early. I know folk fostered and men also gave stepchildren their surnames and all that sort of thing. I will check that volume again to see if it is the one I printed or another one. Thanks again Edie McArthur
-- EdieMc
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illigitmacy
Lauraine Syrnick
Hmm - no so sure I agree with you. In the 1890-1900, an illegitimate child is definitely noted on its birth certificate as “illegitimate"
aa there is one in my family (that I know of). I will do some research on this so thanks for bringing it up. Lauraine
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Re: Need names of some old Farms c1857 in Cathcart, Renfrewshire RFW, Sct
inverkip@...
In the OPR's (Old Parochial Registers), pre-1855, Lawful son or daughter would be a child born to a married couple. A Natural son or daughter is a nice way of saying illegitimate. Recommend check Scotlandsplaces.gov.uk Renfrewshire OS name books, vol. 02, 1856-1857. This lists all named properties and features. These correspond with the maps for those years. Freecen.org.uk is a good place to check also, 100% of Renfrewshire has been transcribed 1841-71.
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This site may be of interest to some of the McArthurs
Lauraine Syrnick
While looking up mining, came across this site which may be of interest to some of the McArthurs on this list.
Lauraine (Smith) Syrnick http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/468.html
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Re: Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay
Robert McArthur
Hi Josephine, Thanks for the interesting census record, but can’t be my g-g-g-grandparents. Daniel was born in 1741 and Jennette in 1752. They were married and came to America in about 1774, and all of their children were born in North Carolina. Jennette’s maiden name was also McArthur. One of my distant cousins still owns part of their original land patent in North Carolina, not far from Wilmington. Bob McArthur
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> on behalf of Josephine Conray <javc@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:57:43 PM To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay Hi
Not sure if this is your family. I think that Daniel and Janette (do you know her last name) went to USA before the 1770’s as there is a 12 Aug 1870 Census with Daniel McArthur age 65 B 1805 Scotland farmer White and Janette. They are living with Alexander McArthur and his wife Mary
And Kate McPherson and her son Robert domestic servant.
Cheers Josephine Qld Aust
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io]
On Behalf Of rhmcar@...
I’d like to hear from anyone with knowledge about my great-great-great grandparents Daniel and Jennette McArthur, who emigrated from Scotland to North Carolina in America in the 1770s. They claimed to have come from Islay. Although there is abundant information about their descendants, I know nothing of their background, and to date I have not identified any of their Scottish ancestry. A few years ago Roger McWee told me he had found some data on Daniel, but no information linking him to any farm or town. I frequently receive Family Tree notifications of y-dna matches, including some strong Nordic, Isle of Mull, and Scottish mainland matches, but so far nothing with a definite link to Islay, and nothing identifying a common direct ancestor. I have seen trees indicating that Daniel’s parents were named John McArthur and Jean Hair, but no supporting evidence of that. Family Finder has been useful in helping me find some relatives, mainly distant cousins here in America. I have uploaded my dna information to Gedmatch (kit T894735) and am in process of deciphering the match information in that database (looks like a long learning curve).
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Re: Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay
My second son is on family finder as well as the Big Y. will take a look at your family finder sometime soon. Going to a big DNA Copnference today being run by our local Rotary club. It is a virtual one, live by Video Link. regards Edie Mc
-- EdieMc
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Re: Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay
Robert McArthur
I haven’t yet upgraded from Y67, but will likely do so soon. I’ve posted a rudimentary family tree on FT family finder, identifying all my direct ancestors I could identify. Daniel McArthur (1741-1819) and Jennette McArthur (1752-1852) were married in the early 1770s, and emigrated to North Carolina in 1774 where all their children were born. Both Daniel and Jennette are buried in North Carolina.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> on behalf of Edie Mc <eamca1944@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:38:33 PM To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io>; Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay That sounds like some sort of cousin match, doesn't it Bob. All 67 markers is a close family member. I wonder if you were to do the Y111 marker if it will help you out. It did us. My brothers DNA as well. We started with the Y67, a lot of different
names to three with the Y111. Sounds like he would be a 0 step which is a perfect match. that is how I understand it. An autosomal may yield some other s belonging to the Daniela add Jeanette line. that helped us as well as I was able to find a third cousin
match and we matched my second great grandparents. That wasn't evident with just the All male line YDNA. You may already have tested with ancestry as well though. Did Scotlands People give you any clues as to when they were married or have any children which
could give you a clue on a time frame. Family search can be handy these days as well.
Hope you find the information you need.
regards
Edie Mc
-- EdieMc
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AULD, ORR, NEILL, Mc&MacDONALD, HENDRIE (HENDRY), HENDERSON, SWAN, KEIR (KIER), LEAN (Others SMITH ,WILSON, COKE, STEEL)
Glennis Austin
Hi Everyone
This is a detailed followup to my brief family outline of 19 January covering Ayrshire, Lanarkshire, Isle of Tiree, Midlothian and Fife. The relevant paragraphs have also been posted to their respective old Rootsweb and new Groups.io lists. Names of interest Ayrshire and Lanarkshire: Robert AULD married 1808 Isabel/Isabella ORR in Kilmaurs, Ayrshire. Their children were Robert, Thomas (m. NEILL), Isabel, Hugh, Marion, Janet and Barbara. According to a Kilmaurs 1828 multiple baptismal entry the father had deserted the family. Thomas AULD living in Failford Ayrshire married 1842 Janet NEILL in Tarbolton. Janet died 1890 in Kilmarnock and Thomas 1893 in Govan. Nine children were baptised in Tarbolton - Robert (m. McDONALD), Agnes Finlay (m. HENDRIE), William Neill, Thomas, George Neill, James Neill, Thomas, Janet and Hugh, the youngest George was baptised 1866 in Kilmarnock. Janet NEILL was the eldest child of William NEILL and Agnes FIN(D)LAY. Janet's siblings - William, George, Robert x 2, Elizabeth, James and Agnes, all born at Coilsfield and baptised in Tarbolton. Agnes Finlay AULD married 1867 Thomas HENDRIE in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire. A son Thomas HENDRY was the grandson of Thomas AULD (above) and the informant of his 1893 death in Govan. Thomas HENDRY was living in Glasgow 1901 may have married Annie and had three children between 1895-99. **** Robert AULD married 1863 Catharine McDONALD in Stonehouse, Lanarkshire. Their four children were baptised in Stonehouse, Bothwell and the two younger ones in Dalziel - Thomas (m. Martha Ann SMITH in NZ), Neil McDonald, Euphemia McDonald (m. LEAN) and Janet. Catharine McDONALD, was born in Kenovay, Isle of Tiree to Neill McDONALD (d. 1838/39) and Euphemia (Effy) MacDONALD, as were her siblings Janet and Niel. Robert AULD and Catharine McDONALD died in Motherwell 1873 and the children went to live with family or were adopted by neighbours as follows. Thomas AULD came to New Zealand in 1879 as Thomas Auld SMITH, son of Motherwell neighbours Adam SMITH and Sophia WILSON (second relationship for both) and two of their children Adam (m. KNOCK in NZ) and Jane Bell (m. REISIMA and ADAMSON in NZ), an older son John remained in Scotland. The ship was met in Napier by two other children James Bell SMITH (m. MUMFORD in NZ) and Sophia (m. 1870 Robert RUSSELL in Dalziel). Thomas continued using the SMITH name including on NZ Electoral Rolls until at least 1893, then reverted to Thomas AULD. The association with descendants of his adopted family continues today. Neil McDonald AULD is a mystery. In 1881 he appears to be living as the adopted nephew of Janet COKE in Bothwell. At some stage he has changed his name, dying in Pollok, Glasgow in 1945 as James STEEL (formerly Neil AULD), Robert AULD and Catharine McDONALD his parents. Euphemia McDonald AULD (d. 1918) went to live with her grandparents Thomas AULD and Janet NEILL in Kilmarnock. She married James Reid LEAN (d. 1914). There were two children who eventually came to New Zealand, perhaps to be with their uncle Thomas and his family. Janet AULD it is unknown what happened to the youngest child of Robert and Catharine. Names of interest Isle of Tiree: Niel McDONALD (d1838/39), a tailor married 1834 Euphemia (Effy) MacDONALD in Kenovay. Three children were baptised in Kenovay between 1834-38 - Janet, Catharine and Niel. In 1841 Euphemia and her children may be living in Kenovay with Lily McDONALD age 60 a cotter and others. Perhaps her siblings and mother? No further conclusive information about the family has been found in Tiree. Catharine McDONALD married Robert AULD from Failford, Ayrshire, in Stonehouse, Lanarkshire in 1863....... **** To avoid repetition of details please refer back to the paragraph (Robert AULD married 1863 Catharine McDONALD in Stonehouse, Lanarkshire) in the previous Ayrshire/Lanarkshire section for continuing family details **** Names of interest Midlothian and Fife: William SWAN married 1822 in Lasswade Ann HENDERSON (d. 1851). There were eight children, some baptisms found in Liberton, Elizabeth, Nancy, William jnr, Ann, Cecil, James and Christina (m. McGILL & BALLOCH/BALLOCK), thanks to Archie GILBERT for his SWAN input. By 1861 William, snr and jnr, Christina and possibly others, were living in Burdiehouse. The youngest child Francis (Fanny) Gordon SWAN (m. HENDERSON in NZ) was born in Straiton, Midlothian, came to New Zealand abt 1864 and married 1866 George HENDERSON in Oamaru. James HENDERSON married 1838 in Torryburn, Fife Catherine KEIR(KIER). Only two children located so far baptised in Dunfermline - Margaret Mathewson and George (m. SWAN in NZ). I have yet to locate the family in earlier Census, but in 1881 Catherine is in Dunfermline and 1891 in Crossford, which might be where she was born abt 1815, her parents may be Peter KEIR and Margaret MATHEWSON who married in 1803. James died pre-1881 Census and Catherine 1896 in Dunfermline. Margaret Mathewson HENDERSON has not been found to date George HENDERSON also came to New Zealand abt 1864 marrying 1866 Francis Gordon SWAN in Oamaru. There were 11 children. Thank you for reading. Kind regards Glennis New Zealand (glennis.austin@...)
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Re: Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay
Josephine Conray
Hi
Not sure if this is your family. I think that Daniel and Janette (do you know her last name) went to USA before the 1770’s as there is a 12 Aug 1870 Census with Daniel McArthur age 65 B 1805 Scotland farmer White and Janette. They are living with Alexander McArthur and his wife Mary
And Kate McPherson and her son Robert domestic servant.
Cheers Josephine Qld Aust
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
[mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of rhmcar@...
Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2020 5:26 AM To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io Subject: [ScotGen] Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay
I’d like to hear from anyone with knowledge about my great-great-great grandparents Daniel and Jennette McArthur, who emigrated from Scotland to North Carolina in America in the 1770s. They claimed to have come from Islay. Although there is abundant information about their descendants, I know nothing of their background, and to date I have not identified any of their Scottish ancestry. A few years ago Roger McWee told me he had found some data on Daniel, but no information linking him to any farm or town. I frequently receive Family Tree notifications of y-dna matches, including some strong Nordic, Isle of Mull, and Scottish mainland matches, but so far nothing with a definite link to Islay, and nothing identifying a common direct ancestor. I have seen trees indicating that Daniel’s parents were named John McArthur and Jean Hair, but no supporting evidence of that. Family Finder has been useful in helping me find some relatives, mainly distant cousins here in America. I have uploaded my dna information to Gedmatch (kit T894735) and am in process of deciphering the match information in that database (looks like a long learning curve).
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Re: Daniel and Jennette McArthur of Islay
That sounds like some sort of cousin match, doesn't it Bob. All 67 markers is a close family member. I wonder if you were to do the Y111 marker if it will help you out. It did us. My brothers DNA as well. We started with the Y67, a lot of different names to three with the Y111. Sounds like he would be a 0 step which is a perfect match. that is how I understand it. An autosomal may yield some other s belonging to the Daniela add Jeanette line. that helped us as well as I was able to find a third cousin match and we matched my second great grandparents. That wasn't evident with just the All male line YDNA. You may already have tested with ancestry as well though. Did Scotlands People give you any clues as to when they were married or have any children which could give you a clue on a time frame. Family search can be handy these days as well. Hope you find the information you need. regards Edie Mc
-- EdieMc
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