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Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Anne Burgess
 

Interesting indeed.

As I have said before in another thread, the term 'non-conformist' in the FS wiki is incorrect, because it is meaningless in relation to churches in Scotland. The term dates from the 17th century, *before* the union of Scotland and England, It originally refers to people or denominations in **England** who did not conform to the Church of **England** and the legislation leading to that never applied in Scotland.

There was no shortage of church denominations in Scotland that broke away from the Church of Scotland at various times, but the correct term for those is 'dissenting'.

Anne


Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Jocelyn Gould
 

Thanks for your explanation Anne.  That explains why my grandmother and her sister held their double wedding ceremony in the home of their mother and then moved on to the Brisbane Caledonian Society for the reception on 26 April 1910.

Happy New Year all

Jocelyn



Re: St. Ninians, church or place (KEEP THIS INFO

Carolynne Vynychenko
 

On Jan 5, 2021, at 6:20 AM, Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Both.

From the point of view of family history, St Ninians is a //parish// in the county of Stirling. It happens to be next door to the parish of Stirling, and is now effectively a suburb of the city.

The really important points to understand are (a) that, until the 19th century at least, the parish was the basic unit, not only of the church but also of civil record-keeping and (b) that most events recorded in a parish register did not necessarily take place in the kirk building. Unless you find a record that says specifically that a wedding or baptism ceremony was performed in the kirk itself, or that the witnesses to a baptism were the congregation, you cannot safely assume that it was.

Most wedding ceremonies, for example, were held in the bride's parents home or, if she had no parents living or was married a long way from home, in the manse (the minister's residence) or in her employer's home. Baptisms too were often performed in the parents' home. Kirk ceremonies became common only during the 20th century, though I myself was baptised in my parents' living room, and I have been a bridesmaid at a wedding in the bride's parents' living room.

So you must not assume that James Lowrie and Grace Monteath were married in a kirk building. In 1829, in fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that they were not.

For background about the parish of St Ninians, see https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Stirling/St%20Ninians
For more information about Scottish marriage customs see https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/

HTH

Anne





Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Nancy W.
 

Thanks for all the websites.  I am trying to write up my family history now and these will certainly be helpful to "get it right" regarding the area, history and customs of the times.

Nancy

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 8:24:00 AM CST, Nancy W. <wright4766@...> wrote:


Anne, Thank you.  It helps me understand the way things were done in early eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in Scotland.  They were probably not very different from the way things were done in the US at the same time. You just reminded me again that the times have changed and are changing faster now.

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 5:20:33 AM CST, Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists@...> wrote:


Both.

From the point of view of family history, St Ninians is a //parish// in the county of Stirling. It happens to be next door to the parish of Stirling, and is now effectively a suburb of the city.

The really important points to understand are (a) that, until the 19th century at least, the parish was the basic unit, not only of the church but also of civil record-keeping and (b) that most events recorded in a parish register did not necessarily take place in the kirk building. Unless you find a record that says specifically that a wedding or baptism ceremony was performed in the kirk itself, or that the witnesses to a baptism were the congregation, you cannot safely assume that it was.

Most wedding ceremonies, for example, were held in the bride's parents home or, if she had no parents living or was married a long way from home, in the manse (the minister's residence) or in her employer's home. Baptisms too were often performed in the parents' home. Kirk ceremonies became common only during the 20th century, though I myself was baptised in my parents' living room, and I have been a bridesmaid at a wedding in the bride's parents' living room.

So you must not assume that James Lowrie and Grace Monteath were married in a kirk building. In 1829, in fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that they were not.

For background about the parish of St Ninians, see https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Stirling/St%20Ninians
For more information about Scottish marriage customs see https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/

HTH

Anne





Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Nancy W.
 

Anne, Thank you.  It helps me understand the way things were done in early eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in Scotland.  They were probably not very different from the way things were done in the US at the same time. You just reminded me again that the times have changed and are changing faster now.

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 5:20:33 AM CST, Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists@...> wrote:


Both.

From the point of view of family history, St Ninians is a //parish// in the county of Stirling. It happens to be next door to the parish of Stirling, and is now effectively a suburb of the city.

The really important points to understand are (a) that, until the 19th century at least, the parish was the basic unit, not only of the church but also of civil record-keeping and (b) that most events recorded in a parish register did not necessarily take place in the kirk building. Unless you find a record that says specifically that a wedding or baptism ceremony was performed in the kirk itself, or that the witnesses to a baptism were the congregation, you cannot safely assume that it was.

Most wedding ceremonies, for example, were held in the bride's parents home or, if she had no parents living or was married a long way from home, in the manse (the minister's residence) or in her employer's home. Baptisms too were often performed in the parents' home. Kirk ceremonies became common only during the 20th century, though I myself was baptised in my parents' living room, and I have been a bridesmaid at a wedding in the bride's parents' living room.

So you must not assume that James Lowrie and Grace Monteath were married in a kirk building. In 1829, in fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that they were not.

For background about the parish of St Ninians, see https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Stirling/St%20Ninians
For more information about Scottish marriage customs see https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/

HTH

Anne





Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Anne Burgess
 

Both.

From the point of view of family history, St Ninians is a //parish// in the county of Stirling. It happens to be next door to the parish of Stirling, and is now effectively a suburb of the city.

The really important points to understand are (a) that, until the 19th century at least, the parish was the basic unit, not only of the church but also of civil record-keeping and (b) that most events recorded in a parish register did not necessarily take place in the kirk building. Unless you find a record that says specifically that a wedding or baptism ceremony was performed in the kirk itself, or that the witnesses to a baptism were the congregation, you cannot safely assume that it was.

Most wedding ceremonies, for example, were held in the bride's parents home or, if she had no parents living or was married a long way from home, in the manse (the minister's residence) or in her employer's home. Baptisms too were often performed in the parents' home. Kirk ceremonies became common only during the 20th century, though I myself was baptised in my parents' living room, and I have been a bridesmaid at a wedding in the bride's parents' living room.

So you must not assume that James Lowrie and Grace Monteath were married in a kirk building. In 1829, in fact, the overwhelming likelihood is that they were not.

For background about the parish of St Ninians, see https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Stirling/St%20Ninians
For more information about Scottish marriage customs see https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/

HTH

Anne


Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:01 PM Nancy W. <wright4766@...> wrote:
Sorry for the additional posting - I sent this Saturday but I haven't seen it or had any responses.

One of my Lowrie ancestors married Grace Monteath on 30 August 1829 at St. Ninian, Stirling, Scotland.
Is St. Ninian a church or a place?

Nancy Lowrie Wright
 
--
http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her


Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

 

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/St._Ninians,_Stirlingshire,_Scotland_Genealogy gives some interesting information, and https://www.minube.net/place/st-ninian-church-a370661 is a neat review.  My children attended carol service in the church, and I have been looking at records for the area for some time.

regards Seymour


Re: St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Anne Farrar
 

From Wikipedia:
St. Ninians is a long-standing settlement which is now a district of the city of Stirling in central Scotland. It is located approximately one mile south of the city centre. It was originally known as Eccles (i.e. 'church'), and may have been a Christian site from an unusually early date (possibly 5th or 6th century). Later called 'St. Ringan's' (a variant of St Ninian's).[1] This church was the administrative centre for churches across the strath of the River Forth.
 
When you google St. Ninian’s, Stirling, Scotland there are churches by that name as well in that location.
 
So it is a church and also a place.
 
Hope this helps
 


St. Ninians, church or place (Stirling)

Nancy W.
 

Sorry for the additional posting - I sent this Saturday but I haven't seen it or had any responses.

One of my Lowrie ancestors married Grace Monteath on 30 August 1829 at St. Ninian, Stirling, Scotland.
Is St. Ninian a church or a place?

Nancy Lowrie Wright


Re: Queen Elizabeth

Anne Burgess
 

Which is why I was very careful to say, "The head of the Church of England is HM Queen Elizabeth, who is the second Queen Elizabeth in England but only the first to reign in Scotland."

The formal designation is indeed the official version, and it proves conclusively that there is no such person as the Queen of England ;)

Anne


Re: Queen Elizabeth

W David Samuelsen
 

nope!

it's this

"Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith"


David Samuelsen
 


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 8:01 PM Lindsay Graham <LDGraham@...> wrote:
Janet, you appear to be assuming that United Kingdom and Great Britain are synonymous.  However, UK includes Northern Ireland, but GB does not.  For example, see the useful map/diagram at https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-great-britain-and-the-united-kingdom.

Lindsay Graham
Canberra, Australia


On 2/1/21 01:48, Janet Farmer via groups.io wrote:
Happy New Year to everyone.

I'm not disagreeing with Anne just clarifying the Queen's title:

The official style of the monarch is "By the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the CommonwealthDefender of the Faith.  In plain language:  Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland), Canada  and the Commonwealth.


I think I've gotten it correct):-

Janet


Re: Queen Elizabeth

Lindsay Graham
 

Janet, you appear to be assuming that United Kingdom and Great Britain are synonymous.  However, UK includes Northern Ireland, but GB does not.  For example, see the useful map/diagram at https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-great-britain-and-the-united-kingdom.

Lindsay Graham
Canberra, Australia


On 2/1/21 01:48, Janet Farmer via groups.io wrote:
Happy New Year to everyone.

I'm not disagreeing with Anne just clarifying the Queen's title:

The official style of the monarch is "By the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the CommonwealthDefender of the Faith.  In plain language:  Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland), Canada  and the Commonwealth.


I think I've gotten it correct):-

Janet
_._,_._,_



Re: Church of Scotland

Glynn Currie
 

Happy New Year Everyone,
Thank you for all of your responses to my question . You have conformed what I had originally thought and added some details that were unknown. I appreciate that.
My question arose because I had read that the queen's church in Scotland was the Church of Scotland. Knowing she was head of the Church of England I jumped to the conclusion that the two churches might be the same. That misunderstanding was answered by the knowledge there are few Anglican family churches in 
Scotland. It would thus become natural for the monarch to attend the established Church under the circumstance.
Thanks again for your help.
Glynn


Queen Elizabeth

Janet Farmer
 

Happy New Year to everyone.

I'm not disagreeing with Anne just clarifying the Queen's title:

The official style of the monarch is "By the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the CommonwealthDefender of the Faith.  In plain language:  Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain (Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland), Canada  and the Commonwealth.


I think I've gotten it correct):-

Janet


Re: Church of Scotland

Anne Burgess
 

The head of the Church of England is HM Queen Elizabeth, who is the second Queen Elizabeth in England but only the first to reign in Scotland. King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth I of England, and every British monarch since James VI (James I of England) has been head of the C of E, including Charles II who did not actually convert to Roman Catholicism, and his brother James VII (James II of England), whose strong inclinations towards Roman Catholicism led to his abdication. See Wikipedia article on King Charles II of England.


Re: Church of Scotland

Anne Burgess
 

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 04:05 AM, <garyturnbull@sympatico.ca> wrote:


I believe the Presbyterian Church is the same thing as the Church of
Scotland.  It is the official or conformist church of Scotland.  All other
churches in Scotland are considered non-conformist.   The Anglican Church is
considered the official Church of England.  Again other denominations are
considered non-conformist.
No, that isn't correct. The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian, but it is not the only Presbyterian denomination in Scotland.

And the terms 'Conformist' and 'Non-conformist' are technically meaningless in Scotland. It originated in the 1660s, when the Church of England was restored in England as the official state religion. Anyone who refused to conform to the doctrines of the Church of England was called a non-conformist. This was before the union of Scotland with England-and-Wales in 1707 and the legislation defining the relationship of the Church of England to the monarch and government in England did not apply and never has applied in Scotland.

Presbyterians in Scotland who do not adhere to the Church of Scotland are Dissenters, not Non-conformists.

Anne


Re: Church of Scotland

Anne Burgess
 

The Church of Scotland and the Church of England are entirely independent of one another. There are differences in the forms of worship, but the fundamental difference is in how the church hierarchy is organised.

The Church of Scotland is one of many Presbyterian denominations.

Presbyterian churches do not have bishops. the hierarchy is a series of committees. Each congregation is managed by a committee called the Kirk Session, which consists of the minister and elders. Each one sends the minister and representative elder to the Presbytery, which is a committee that oversees a wider area, including all the parishes in that area. Every Presbytery belongs to a still larger area called a Synod, and all Synods belong to the General Assembly, which is made up of all ministers and some but far from all representative elders. Every Presbyterian denomination has its own Kirk Sessions and its own General Assembly so if you are speaking about the 'General Assembly' you should really specify which one - for example the 'General Assembly of the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland' - but the term 'General Assembly' on its own is usually taken to mean the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

The Church of England is one of many Episcopalian denominations. Episcopalian means that the church hierarchy includes bishops.

Apart from one or two small congregations the Church of England does not operate in Scotland. The corresponding Protestant Episcopalian denomination in Scotland is the Scottish Episcopal Church, also known as the Episcopal Church in Scotland, and sometimes referred to as the English Church. It is independent of the Church of England, but is in full communion with the Church of England as part of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

HTH

Anne


Re: Church of Scotland

W David Samuelsen
 

The head of the Church of England is Queen Elizabeth II. Every ruler since Henry VIII had been head of the Church of England, except maybe Charles II (was he, considering that he was Roman Catholic?)

David Samuelsen

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:05 PM <garyturnbull@...> wrote:

Hi Glynn

 

I believe the Presbyterian Church is the same thing as the Church of Scotland.  It is the official or conformist church of Scotland.  All other churches in Scotland are considered non-conformist.   The Anglican Church is considered the official Church of England.  Again other denominations are considered non-conformist.

 

Regards

Gary

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glynn Currie
Sent: December 31, 2020 2:17 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Church of Scotland

 

 

Happy Hogmanay,

 

I wonder if anyone can explain the relationship between the Church of Scotland and the Presbyterian Church and the Church of England. I am having difficulty understanding some of the things I am reading.

Glynn

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy

 


Re: Church of Scotland

garyturnbull@...
 

Hi Glynn

 

I believe the Presbyterian Church is the same thing as the Church of Scotland.  It is the official or conformist church of Scotland.  All other churches in Scotland are considered non-conformist.   The Anglican Church is considered the official Church of England.  Again other denominations are considered non-conformist.

 

Regards

Gary

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glynn Currie
Sent: December 31, 2020 2:17 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Church of Scotland

 

 

Happy Hogmanay,

 

I wonder if anyone can explain the relationship between the Church of Scotland and the Presbyterian Church and the Church of England. I am having difficulty understanding some of the things I am reading.

Glynn

 

 

Sent from my Galaxy

 

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