Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io

Re: John Mackay Problem ..............

jwmmackay@...

#563

Hi Josephine,

I’m curious: Would it be possible for you tell me if there is an Ancestry family tree for either of the following?

William McKay, born July 4, 1821 in Knockbain, Ross Shire. Would later go by Mackay. Died 1903.

Married to Margaret Cobban, born around 1817 in New Spynie, Moray. Died 1908.

Children:

John McKay, born Apr 7, 1849 in Drainie, Morayshire, Moray County.

Margaret McKay, born 1852 Morayshire

Alexander McKay, born 1854 Morayshire

Elizabeth McKay, born Dec 24, 1856, Morayshire

William McKay, born May 16, 1860 Morayshire

or for the parents of William the father? I have him born in 1821 to Alexander McKay and Margaret Simpson, in Muckernich / Knockbain. All I ever found on Alexander and Margaret was a very brief marriage record (17 April 1806). No info on age, birth, death, parents, etc. They did have another child, Alexander, born 15 April, 1816.

Thanks!

John Mackay

Re: John Mackay Problem ..............

jwmmackay@...

#562

I resent your subject heading, Ray. (Which is a joke - my name is John Mackay).

I was hoping to see some of my ancestors in your names and dates. I have come across Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser in my own research, but eliminated them as relations. My Mackays / McKays (the spelling varies) settled in Moray, but in the 1820’s and earlier were in Ross and Cromarty (Culbokie). I’ll keep watching your posts to see if I see some familiar names. Good luck to you.

John

Re: John Mackay Problem ..............

Meg

#561

Hi

Libindx has 2 entries for him, but not much more info in them - take from the death notice in the 3 different papers
http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp

It is possible that the son didn't know his grandparent full names and Fraser might not be his grandmother's maiden name. Have you looked at Naming Patterns for his choldren and any Middle Names? Also witnesses on baptism could be brothers or sisters of John and their deaths may show up different parents.

Other things to consider is John might *think* he was born in Redcastle because that is all he remembered, but actually born in Uray. Was the mother born in Uray and went home to her mother for his birth? Is it possible that Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser are John's Grandparent and not parents? 29 years would fit that. What children did they have that could be John's parent? Did they have a John, who then had this John?

Sorry not much help there, just more questions and possiblities.

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Claude Hanson

#560

Thanks Anne! Now, I think I'm going to shift my focus a bit to see if I can find a death record for John McLeod soon after the 1881 census was taken.... I guess I will probe Morayshire because Alves is in that county and also the county where the hospital is. (I have to go back through you messages because you gave me that information. It will be amazing if I find anything; but not trying is unacceptable! Claude

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On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 3:54 AM Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

It's very common indeed for there to be no record of a death before the start of civil registration in 1855.

As I understand it, the Kirk was interested in baptisms to ensure that every child was received into the kirk, and in marriages for the prevention of sin, but it wasn't necessary to mark a death as such because that was simply a transformation into a better life. So you only get death records if they were generated as something else - payment for a mortlcoth, a gravediggers' notebook, a cemetery record, a gravestone, a poor law or hospital record, a will, a sasine, a newspaper announcement and so on.

Christian Munro almost certainly died before 1851, as she is not in the 1851 census with her son and daughters. Nor have I found her anywhere else.

I don't think you are ever going to be certain about the parentage of John Ross or Christian Munro. You don't know where or even roughly when John Ross was born, and for Christian you have an approximate* date of birth, and you know that she was not born in Morayshire.

*As I said somewhere upthread, adults' ages in the 1841 census were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, and the census was taken on 7 June 1841. So if 65 is accurate, Christian would have been born between 8 June 1771 and 7 June 1776. There are 9 baptisms of Christ* M*nr* between 1771 and 1776 on Scotland's People, of whom 3 were baptised in Ross and Cromarty. There will be many more whose baptism records, if they ever existed, have not survived.

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Anne Burgess

#559

It's very common indeed for there to be no record of a death before the start of civil registration in 1855.

As I understand it, the Kirk was interested in baptisms to ensure that every child was received into the kirk, and in marriages for the prevention of sin, but it wasn't necessary to mark a death as such because that was simply a transformation into a better life. So you only get death records if they were generated as something else - payment for a mortlcoth, a gravediggers' notebook, a cemetery record, a gravestone, a poor law or hospital record, a will, a sasine, a newspaper announcement and so on. 

Christian Munro almost certainly died before 1851, as she is not in the 1851 census with her son and daughters. Nor have I found her anywhere else. 

I don't think you are ever going to be certain about the parentage of John Ross or Christian Munro. You don't know where or even roughly when John Ross was born, and for Christian you have an approximate* date of birth, and you know that she was not born in Morayshire. 

*As I said somewhere upthread, adults' ages in the 1841 census were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, and the census was taken on 7 June 1841. So if 65 is accurate, Christian would have been born between 8 June 1771 and 7 June 1776. There are 9 baptisms of Christ* M*nr* between 1771 and 1776 on Scotland's People, of whom 3 were baptised in Ross and Cromarty. There will be many more whose baptism records, if they ever existed, have not survived.

Re: John Mackay Problem ..............

Anne Burgess

#558

I would not dismiss the baptism in Urray which is the right year and parents.There are several Redcastles in Scotland. One of these is on the north shore of the Beauly Firth in the county of Ross and Cromarty. It is in the parish of Killearnan, and is a mile or so from the boundary of the parish of Killearnan with the parish of Urray. He could have been born in a cottage belonging to Redcastle estate which happens to be in the parish of Urray, or his parents may have been normally resident in the parish of Urray but he was born at his mother's parents' home in the parish of Killearnan, or the minister of Killearnan was away or ill and they had to take the baby to the next parish for baptism, or some other reason. 

Have you looked at the original baptism record to see what it says?

Re: John Mackay Problem ..............

Josephine Conray

#557

Hello Ray.

There are 28 family trees on Ancestry for a John MacKay info as follow. This is from Ancestry so you will have to verified

John MacKay born 6 Jan 1779 Milton of Redcastle, Ross & Cromarty and died 21 June 1861, Police Station, Forres, Moray.

Married to Elspet MacGregor born 1774 Avielochan, Duthil Moray and died 22 Nov 1861 Forres Moray

Children --:

Willian Born 27 Jan 1811 Duthil, Married to Jane Stewart 8 children

Margaret Born 8 Oct 1813 Duthil, married to John Douglas 8 children

Isabel born 18 Oct 1816 Duthil

Some of the trees Have John born Kincastle , Urray, Ross & Cromarty and Redcastle. I think all these places are near each other, you can take you pick

Hope this helps

Josephine

Qld Aust.

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From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of aberloursearch via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 13 July 2020 11:52 AM
To: suewood123@...; Scots@scotland-genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] John Mackay Problem ..............

Good morning everyone,

I am searching for Jouhn Mackay who was listed as a labouror on the 1851 and 1861 census for Forres in Moray.

On these census he states he was 72 years old and 82 years old and born in Redcastle, Ross and Cromarty.

I also have a copy of his death certificate from 1861 that was witnessed by his son stating he was 82 years old and his parents were Duncan Mackay (farmer) and Margaret Fraser both deceased.

I then searched on Scotlands people for a birth of John Mackay son of Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser there was only one listed and he was born in 1779 which would fit with his age on the census and age on his death certificate.

However this John Mackay was NOT born in Redcastle but in Uray.

There are no other children listed for Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser on Scotlands people that i can find.

I did however find a marriage in Uray for a Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser however this marriage was in 1750 29 years before John Mackay was born.

All the information i have is from Scotlands people.

Anyones thoughts on this would be gratefully appreciated.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Wood <suewood123@...>
To: Scots@scotland-genealogy.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Jul 13, 2020 8:27 am
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] McQueen / McLean Fernley near Carbost Skye

My problem is that the marriages I have found for some of this family don't give parents names.

If they stayed in Scotland I would be searching death records for the males for days and not hours. The only accurate way that I can think of is to hope that some one, anyplace in the world, has Kenneth Mcqueen / MacQueen and Mary Mclean /MacLean on a death certificate. Would love to have other advice.

Re: Ann Campbell

Doreen Hale

#556

I have an Ann Campbell in my direct line back... had great trouble finding her birth as by the time she reached Canada then ultimately New Zealand, she known as Agnes.
I understand there are commonly 
interchangeable names in Scotland, there was an Ann of the same age in the 1841 Census with my family but not my Agnes.   Same person!

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On 12/07/2020, at 20:52, Anne Burgess via groups.io <anne.genlists=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

﻿[Edited Message Follows]

Please state everything you know about her, including the names of her children in order, what the 1841 census says, and when and where she died. No point in everyone else here trying to duplicate what you have already found.

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Claude Hanson

#555

Josephine - Thanks, I looked up your suggestion and it was the wrong one...I'll continue looking elsewhere.

Re: John Mackay Problem ..............

aberloursearch@...

#554

Good morning everyone,

I am searching for Jouhn Mackay who was listed as a labouror on the 1851 and 1861 census for Forres in Moray.

On these census he states he was 72 years old and 82 years old and born in Redcastle, Ross and Cromarty.

I also have a copy of his death certificate from 1861 that was witnessed by his son stating he was 82 years old and his parents were Duncan Mackay (farmer) and Margaret Fraser both deceased.

I then searched on Scotlands people for a birth of John Mackay son of Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser there was only one listed and he was born in 1779 which would fit with his age on the census and age on his death certificate.

However this John Mackay was NOT born in Redcastle but in Uray.

There are no other children listed for Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser on Scotlands people that i can find.

I did however find a marriage in Uray for a Duncan Mackay and Margaret Fraser however this marriage was in 1750 29 years before John Mackay was born.

All the information i have is from Scotlands people.

Anyones thoughts on this would be gratefully appreciated.

Ray

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Wood <suewood123@...>
To: Scots@scotland-genealogy.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Jul 13, 2020 8:27 am
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] McQueen / McLean Fernley near Carbost Skye

My problem is that the marriages I have found for some of this family don't give parents names.

If they stayed in Scotland I would be searching death records for the males for days and not hours. The only accurate way that I can think of is to hope that some one, anyplace in the world, has Kenneth Mcqueen / MacQueen and Mary Mclean /MacLean on a death certificate. Would love to have other advice.

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Josephine Conray

#553

Hi Claude

Found this death record on Scotland People POSSIBLE for Christy

Surname	Forename	Age at death	Mother's Maiden Name	Year	Ref	RD Name	Image View
ROSS	CHRISTY			1855	069/ 27	Kilmuir Easter (Ross and Cromarty)

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From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Claude Hanson
Sent: Monday, 13 July 2020 2:00 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Searching for John McLeod

Meg and Anne -
Thanks for your help reminding me how to find Donald Ross's baptism record. I printed it and it says " 22nd Aug John Ross, farmer at Heathfield had by his spouse Christy Munro a child baptised named Don'd. Witnesses David Miller and John Bain born 21st". In my notes, I have John Ross and Christy Munro's marriage record is in 1805. It was interesting to me to see one of the witnesses was John Bain. My John McLeod, the son of Donald Ross's youngest sister Rebecca was living with a 77 year old John Bain when he was 16, following the death of his mother in 1864. If it is the same John Bain, he would have had to be 10 years old when he was the witness at his Uncle Donald's baptism. I think that is a bit unlikely!

Anne, it is the church records for Dyke parish I'm interested in viewing. I was so surprised when you said there may not be a death record for Christy Munro and the only way I could find where she died is to find a record of a fee the church called for rental of a casket covering owned by the church. She apparently died sometime between 1841 when she was 65 and 1861 where she is listed as deceased on her daughter Christina's death record.

Any comments concerning my guess at the birth records of John Ross and Christy Munro would be appreciated,

And thanks again for helping this feeble-minded old soul in his search to find the genealogy of his wife's paternal grandfather, John McLeod.
Claude

Re: McQueen / McLean Fernley near Carbost Skye

Sue Wood

#552

My problem is that the marriages I have found for some of this family don't give parents names.

If they stayed in Scotland I would be searching death records for the males for days and not hours. The only accurate way that I can think of is to hope that some one, anyplace in the world, has Kenneth Mcqueen / MacQueen and Mary Mclean /MacLean on a death certificate. Would love to have other advice.

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Claude Hanson

#551

Meg and Anne -
Thanks for your help reminding me how to find Donald Ross's baptism record. I printed it and it says " 22nd Aug John Ross, farmer at Heathfield had by his spouse Christy Munro a child baptised named Don'd. Witnesses David Miller and John Bain born 21st". In my notes, I have John Ross and Christy Munro's marriage record is in 1805. It was interesting to me to see one of the witnesses was John Bain. My John McLeod, the son of Donald Ross's youngest sister Rebecca was living with a 77 year old John Bain when he was 16, following the death of his mother in 1864. If it is the same John Bain, he would have had to be 10 years old when he was the witness at his Uncle Donald's baptism. I think that is a bit unlikely!

Anne, it is the church records for Dyke parish I'm interested in viewing. I was so surprised when you said there may not be a death record for Christy Munro and the only way I could find where she died is to find a record of a fee the church called for rental of a casket covering owned by the church. She apparently died sometime between 1841 when she was 65 and 1861 where she is listed as deceased on her daughter Christina's death record.

Any comments concerning my guess at the birth records of John Ross and Christy Munro would be appreciated,

And thanks again for helping this feeble-minded old soul in his search to find the genealogy of his wife's paternal grandfather, John McLeod.
Claude

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Meg

#550

Hi Claude

Donald Ross' baptism is on ScotandPeople if you look under Church Register - Old parish Register's - Births. It is indexed under Donald, but I searched as D (beginning with - in search options). If it says he is Natural then he was illegitimate. But under Scot's Law if the parents marry after he becomes legitimate. IF he was illegitimate there will probably be an entry in the Kirk Session Minutes about fornication - unfortunately they are only available in the Registers in Edinburgh or a couple of other centers around Scotland, not online yet, as Ann has already said. The KSM are fascinating reading, but I usually build up a list to investigate then go down and spend a day checking them while visiting friends.

I have found a Janet Ross born Easter Ross dates 7/9/1815 with a strange entry under the parents - ALEXR. ROSS/ANNE ROSS FR 163 MONTH NOT STATED IN ENTRY (FR163) - I can't remember without checking if those are the parents you are looking for, but that extra makes me wonder if the baptism was allot later than the birth. Anyone else seen that before?

I always search 2-5 years either side of the date of the birth. I have one that was baptised many years after birth - think the mother suddenly got religion and got her two legitimate children baptised on the same day when they were in their teens. So it pays to widen searches and be flexible on spellings and if it is indexed by something like Don'd or Donald even when you know what you are looking for.

Re: Ann Campbell

Anne Burgess

#549
Edited

Please state everything you know about her, including the names of her children in order, what the 1841 census says, and when and where she died. No point in everyone else here trying to duplicate what you have already found.

Re: McQueen / McLean Fernley near Carbost Skye

Anne Burgess

#548

It matches the information in the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, where the original document can be viewed and downloaded, so yes, it will be accurate, but be aware that it may not contain much more information than the indexes.

Re: Searching for John McLeod

Anne Burgess

#547

The baptism record of Donald Ross on 22 August 1804 in Kilmuir Easter is available to view on Scotland's People. The originals of 99% of the Scottish birth/baptism and banns/marriages indexed on FamilySearch, FMP, Ancestry, MyHeritage etc are on Scotland's People, so that is always the first port of call once you have found it in an index. It is usual for a baptism record of an illegitimate child to say that s/he is illegitimate ('natural' is one of the terms used for 'illegitimate'; also 'born in uncleanness' or 'born in fornication').

The surviving Kirk Session minutes are in the National Records of Scotland. They have all been digitised, and Scotland's People intends to make them available but so far has not managed to do so for technical reasons. In the meantime they can be viewed on-screen in Edinburgh and in a few local archives, but of course they are all closed at the moment because of coronavirus. The Kilmuir Easter ones for the period you are interested in have survived. 

Janet Ross may have died in infancy or early childhood, in which case there may not be any record of her after her baptism. 

Noting that John Ross and Christian Munro had a Catherine baptised in 1809 and then a Kathrine in 1812, I would think it likely that Catherine b 1809 died in early childhood and that a later child was given the same name, spelled Kathrine in the baptism register for reasons probably known only to the clerk who wrote it down. The later baptism would fit better with the age of Catherine Ross or Bannerman in the census and death certificate.

Re: Ann Campbell

Eliz Cook

#546

Campbell was her maiden name.

I have her in the 1841 census and her death later which suggests she was born in 1797.

I have her children in 1841 and some much more recent..

I am unsure of her parents.

Elizabeth

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On 12 Jul 2020, at 15:55, Lindsay Graham <LDGraham@...> wrote:
Elizabeth, do you mean you think she was born in 1797? Where else have you tried for clues? -- 1851 census? Was CAMPBELL her maiden surname or married surname?

Lindsay Graham
Canberra, Australia

On 12/7/20 14:21, Eliz Cook wrote:
I would like to find more info on Ann Campbell who I think was born in 1897 in Blarnabee, Urray,Ross.
I think her parents were Alexander Campbell and Mary ?
She is in the 1841 census in Breachachy,Inverness, as a crofters widow.


Elizabeth 

Re: Ann Campbell

Lindsay Graham

#545

Elizabeth, do you mean you think she was born in 1797? Where else have you tried for clues? -- 1851 census? Was CAMPBELL her maiden surname or married surname?

Lindsay Graham
Canberra, Australia

Show quoted text

On 12/7/20 14:21, Eliz Cook wrote:

I would like to find more info on Ann Campbell who I think was born in 1897 in Blarnabee, Urray,Ross.
I think her parents were Alexander Campbell and Mary ?
She is in the 1841 census in Breachachy,Inverness, as a crofters widow.


Elizabeth

Ann Campbell

Eliz Cook

#544

I would like to find more info on Ann Campbell who I think was born in 1897 in Blarnabee, Urray,Ross.
I think her parents were Alexander Campbell and Mary ?
She is in the 1841 census in Breachachy,Inverness, as a crofters widow.


Elizabeth