Date   

Re: McKays in Moray

Anne Burgess
 

It depends how many years, but digital images of original Scottish BMD and census records have been available on a pay-per-view basis for about 15 years. Ancestry has a few of those, and some (notoriously error-prone) transcriptions of the census, but only Scotland's People has the complete set. There are other transcriptions available for example FindMyPast (1841-1901, with transcription errors) and FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl which is more accurate but a long way from having full coverage.

See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

Anne


Re: McKays in Moray

jwmmackay@...
 

Thanks so much, Anne. I never came across any death records in Scotland. As I recall (and it has been a few years), the paper trail ran out after I found the above. I did not look specifically for death certificates, but I will now.

Your comment about Ancestry was interesting. I’ve always wondered what I may have missed by not joining.

Thanks again for these leads. It will be good to get back into this again.

John


Re: McKays in Moray

Anne Burgess
 

PS Elizabeth Cooper McKay, aged 78, died in Inverness in 1935. If her death was registered by a relative, it might provide a clue to where her siblings went.

Anne


Re: McKays in Moray

Anne Burgess
 

Have you found William McKay's death certificate? It should tell you the names of both his parents.

There's a death of Margaret Cobban, other surname McKay, aged 90, in Cromarty in 1908. Go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, invest in a few credits, and use a few of them to download the certificate. That should confirm the names of Margaret's parents and the name and occupation of her husband.

The 1901 census (a transcription) shows William McKay, 79, steamboat agent, wife Margaret, 83 and daughter Elizabeth, 44, born Alves, living in Cromarty. You can get the original of the census from Scotland's People.

There is a death of William McKay, 82, in Cromarty in 1903. This looks like your William. Once again, get his death certificate from Scotland's People and it should tell you the names of his parents.

You were wise not to subscribe to Ancestry, as you would not have found any of this information there.

Happy hunting!

Anne


McKays in Moray

jwmmackay@...
 

Hello all.  Some years back, with Scotland’s People, familyhistory.uk, and some other sources, I attempted to find my McKay family roots, in Scotland, Ireland, or wherever the facts would take me. I never joined Ancestry, as money was tight at the time, but I did have some success.

John McKay is my 2nd great gf. I tracked him from New York, back to Canada, and ultimately Drainie, Morayshire. He appears in 2 Censuses, 1851 and 1861. In 1861, living on Ardgye Farm, his family is as follows:

William, head, 39
Margaret (maiden name Cobban), wife, 40
John, 12
Margaret, 9
Alexander, 7
Elizabeth, 4
William, 1

I have a William McKay, presumably my 3rd great gf, born in 1821 in Knockbain, Ross Shire. A birth record for 4 July lists a William born to Alexander and Margaret Simpson. If these are in fact my 4th great g parents, I have them being married 17 April, 1806 in Urquhart, with another son Alexander, born in 1816. That is all the documentation I was able to find, and that is as far back as I have been able to take the McKays.

I did find a Margaret Cobban b 1817 in New Spynie, Moray, to John and Elizabeth Cooper. My Margaret gave the name Cooper to her daughter Elizabeth as a middle name, so I made the leap of faith that this was her, which lead me to a Cobban branch in New Spynie going back to the 1700’s - thanks to the previous genealogical work of others.

What I would be interested in knowing is if I have traced my 3rd great gf William correctly, and, if so, if it is possible to take the McKays back further, to William's parents, etc.

And I would like to know the fate of my 2nd great gf John’s siblings - Margaret, Alexander, etc. I couldn’t find any promising McKays in Scotland in 1871 or 1881. Did all emigrate? If so, where to? Only my John appears to have made it to Canada.

And if anyone wants to disprove my Margaret Cobban being on this deep-rooted Cobban branch, I suppose I would welcome that too.

If there are any knowledgeable, resourceful people out there better at this than I am, I would appreciate any insights you can provide.

Regards,
John Mackay, Chicago USA.


Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Joanne Mackay
 

Thank you to hw_03-lst-mor@... and Chas Houston for their valuable input .

Will try everything mentioned.

Thank you

Jo


 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of hw_03-lst-mor@...
Sent: Sunday, 12 April 2020 12:22 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

His Deskford marriage record of 27 Jun 1819 shows he was in Cullen at the time. The 1841 census for Deskford declares he was born in Scotland but not in Banffshire (and he was considerably older than his wife).

Could he have been a soldier stationed at Cullen, and discharged after the Napoleonic Wars? If so, his records might be in the National Archives - I believe you can try a Free Trial with FindMyPast to access the basics to at least find if there was a soldier of that name (I got 155 overall - 2 noted as being in Banffshire - whether that's birth place or discharge place I cannot tell).

If so, and what you can extract from FindMyPast isn't enough, a visit in person might unearth details of his entire career. (I found for example that one of mine was paid in money in lieu of beer - wrong way round to my mind!)


Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Howard
 

His Deskford marriage record of 27 Jun 1819 shows he was in Cullen at the time. The 1841 census for Deskford declares he was born in Scotland but not in Banffshire (and he was considerably older than his wife).

Could he have been a soldier stationed at Cullen, and discharged after the Napoleonic Wars? If so, his records might be in the National Archives - I believe you can try a Free Trial with FindMyPast to access the basics to at least find if there was a soldier of that name (I got 155 overall - 2 noted as being in Banffshire - whether that's birth place or discharge place I cannot tell).

If so, and what you can extract from FindMyPast isn't enough, a visit in person might unearth details of his entire career. (I found for example that one of mine was paid in money in lieu of beer - wrong way round to my mind!)


Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Chas Houston <cmcfhouston@...>
 

He was an Agric Labourer at Clune, Deskford, Banff in June 1841. He was not born in Banff.The closest graveyard is at Portsoy Cemetery, however many working folk would never have been able to afford a headstone in those times.

Boggierow is a small farm which can be seen on Goggle Earth STREET view by looking up the lane to it from the A98., so there was probaly only three families at most there in 1842.

Year County Place Civil Parish Piece Enumeration District Folio Page House Number House or Street Name
1841 Banffshire (BAN) Deskford Deskford 151 4 4 1
Clune
Surname Forenames Sex Age Occupation Birth County Notes
MCKAY Ewan M 50 Ag Labourer OUC
MCKAY Margaret F 40
BAN
MCKAY William M 15 Ag Labourer BAN
MCKAY Margaret F 9
BAN
MCKAY Peter M 7
BAN
MCKAY Joseph M 3
BAN



On 11-Apr-20 4:10 AM, Goldie & Lido Doratti wrote:
You need to get on to family search.org or to Scotland’s People and you will find the info you are looking for.  It’s called a Mort Cloth and not all, but most, churches had 2 of them; one was more expensive to rent than the other one.  They were used to cover the coffin or body from the kirk to the graveyard.  They were ‘rented’ and had to be returned to the Kirk (church).  Some of the old Parish Record books have pages of “Mort Cloth Rentals”.....because the church was required to keep an account of income and expenditures.  I have been told that they shouldn’t be in the Parish Record books of Births and Marriages, so some have them, some don’t, and they are evasive.  For example you might find a record saying “Joe Smith’s wife..10 “.........so if you know who Joe Smith’s wife is you would be safe to ‘assume’ she died sometimes before he paid for the Mort Cloth rental, and then could ‘assume’ she had died.  If the death is after 1855 when registration became mandatory in Scotland you can get the death registration from Scotland’s People site.  In 1841 Scotland did the first census, and that may be helpful as well.  Try these.........good luck, Goldie
 
From: Josephine Conray
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 7:50 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death
 

Hi Jo

 

There are a few Family trees on Ancestry for Ewan Mackay but about four have the following information

 

Ewan Mackay Born 1791 Scotland and Died 21 Dec 1842 in Boggierow, Fordyce Scot. Patents William? MacKay/ McKay? And Ann? Gray?

Margaret Russell 23 Jan 1798 and Died 23 Jan 1864 Fordyce Village, Scot.

 

Ewan & Margaret had 10 children

 

I will keep looking so I hope this helps

 

Josephine

Bris, Aust.

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joanne Mackay
Sent: Saturday, 11 April 2020 2:56 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

Hi all

 

I am enquiring about my GGGG Grandfather Ewen/Ewan/Ewing/Evan/Even Mackay/McKay/McCay (so many diff spellings).

He died 21/12/1842 at Boggierow, Fordyce. He was an Ag Lab and was born c 1791 in Scotland.

He married  in 1819 at Deskford to Margaret Russel.

 

I have enquired on forums about this family before and don’t want to waste anyone’s time going over info again so I am trying to ask specific questions.

Previous answers have been helpful but I can’t get any traction.

 

I am trying to find out who his parents were and if he died in Boggierow where would he have likely to have been buried.

He was probably poor and didn’t have a headstone and I haven’t found anything in regards to the death cloth (not sure of its proper title).

What would the population of Boggierow be back in 1842? What newspapers would deaths have been reported to in that area?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Jo Mackay in Australia




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Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Joanne Mackay
 

Thank you very much Josephine and Goldie. I appreciate the information you have looked up and for your advice.

One of the trees on Ancestry is mine J

I have thought about William McKay and Ann Gray being his parents but I actually can’t prove it. One of his sons Joseph has his fathers name as John on his death certificate which does tie in BUT is Ewen or variations everywhere else. Very confusing!!!

I thought if I could find his burial information it may help confirm him one way or the other maybe buried with parents etc.

 

I will check out familysearch.org for the Mort cloth info.

 

Thank you again. Appreciate it. HAPPY EASTER.

Jo Mackay

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josephine Conray
Sent: Saturday, 11 April 2020 2:26 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

Hi Jo

 

This information is from Scotland People.

 

Ewen McKay married on 27 6 1819 at Deskford parish 151Ref 20-144 Margaret Russell

 

There is a death of a Evan McCay  on the 21-12-1842 parish 153 Ref/no 50-478 at Fordyce.

 

There is a marriage for William McKay to Ann Gray on 00/12/1784 Parish 153 Ref/no 40/408 Fordyce. Scot. So that would make their birth dates about 1763.

These are the children from that marriage on Scotland People

 

** the one John b1791 could be your Ewan, as I saw on one of the family tree in the early days John was use for Ewan.

 

I hope this helps

 

Josephine

Bris. Aust

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joanne Mackay
Sent: Saturday, 11 April 2020 2:56 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

Hi all

 

I am enquiring about my GGGG Grandfather Ewen/Ewan/Ewing/Evan/Even Mackay/McKay/McCay (so many diff spellings).

He died 21/12/1842 at Boggierow, Fordyce. He was an Ag Lab and was born c 1791 in Scotland.

He married  in 1819 at Deskford to Margaret Russel.

 

I have enquired on forums about this family before and don’t want to waste anyone’s time going over info again so I am trying to ask specific questions.

Previous answers have been helpful but I can’t get any traction.

 

I am trying to find out who his parents were and if he died in Boggierow where would he have likely to have been buried.

He was probably poor and didn’t have a headstone and I haven’t found anything in regards to the death cloth (not sure of its proper title).

What would the population of Boggierow be back in 1842? What newspapers would deaths have been reported to in that area?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Jo Mackay in Australia

 


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Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Anne Burgess
 

He would have been buried in the parish kirkyard at Fordyce. See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ5563 and discussion at https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=504689.0

The cloth was called a Mortcloth. There are often records of payments for the hire of a mortcloth in the Kirk Session records, but these documents cannot (yet) be viewed on Scotland's People.

In the 1841 census Ewan's age is given as 50. In 1841 adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, which means that he could have been any age from 40 to 54. The census was taken on 7 June 1841, so if his age was accurate he was born some time between 8 June 1786 and 7 June 1791.

If he was poor enough not to have a headstone it is not likely that his death was reported in the newspapers. The most likely newspapers, if he was mentioned at all, would have been the Banffshire Journal and the Aberdeen Journal and Aberdeen Weekly Journal. Both of these are in the British Newspaper Archive https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk. You can search it for free but if you want to see a full entry you need a subscription to the collection or you can view it with a subscription to FindMyPast. It is not easy to search because it can't accommodate spelling variations. I have had a look and did not find anything.

Boggierow is a single farm/croft - see https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.68158&lon=-2.70540&layers=5&b=1. If you want to know the number of people living there in 1842, you could get an idea by going to the 1841 census at https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl and 'walking' the enumeration district looking for mentions of Bog(g)ierow. Start by searching for Alexander Bannerman, aged 40, in the parish of Fordyce and use the 'previous household' and 'next household' buttons to find all the households at Bog(g)ierow. I would be surprised if there were more than three or four households there.

I see that the recorded children were John 1820, Janet 1821, Anne 1824, William 1826, Alexander 1828, Ewan 1830, Margaret 1832, Peter 1837, Joseph 1837 and Jane 1841. It looks as if Margaret Russell or McKay, mother's maiden surname Lawrence, died in Fordyce in 1864 aged 65. She could be the daughter of John Russell and Janet Lawrence, baptised 28 January 1798 in Rathven. You can verify this by viewing her death certificate on Scotland's People if you don't already have it. Have you seen all the children's baptism records? Are the witnesses named and if so do they provide any clues?

If this is her, then Ewan and Margaret do not seem to have followed the naming tradition exactly, unless Ewan's father's name was also John, and if that were the case you would expect the second son to be Ewan. Therefore, while it is possible that his parents' names were William and Anne, you can't be certain. Also, you know that, according to the 1841 census, he was ***not*** born in Banffshire, which leaves 32 other counties where he could have been born. It has been suggested that his parents were William McKay and Ann Gray, but all their recorded children **were** born in Banffshire.

As for trees on Ancestry or any other commercial web site, the golden rule is: never believe anything you find online, unless it is an image of an original document, and even then be wary as mistakes are not unknown. Just because there are four trees suggesting this does not lend any more weight to that idea than one tree, or forty-one trees, because people copy others' trees without checking them, so if the first one is wrong, then all the copied ones will be wrong as well.

If I were you I would take a very close look at those online trees, try to work out which was the first one submitted, and then contact whoever submitted that tree and ask them if they have any solid evidence to verify that William McKay and Ann Gray were the parents of Ewan McKay.

I'd sum up by saying that **if** the 1841 census is wrong about where Ewan was born, he **might** be John, son of William McKay and Ann Gray. But in my opinion the chances are that he was from further north and west, and unless you can find some other primary source, which is not likely, you will never be able to say with certainty who his parents were. Sorry to have to say that, but facts are chiels that winna ding.


Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Josephine Conray
 

Hi Jo

 

This information is from Scotland People.

 

Ewen McKay married on 27 6 1819 at Deskford parish 151Ref 20-144 Margaret Russell

 

There is a death of a Evan McCay  on the 21-12-1842 parish 153 Ref/no 50-478 at Fordyce.

 

There is a marriage for William McKay to Ann Gray on 00/12/1784 Parish 153 Ref/no 40/408 Fordyce. Scot. So that would make their birth dates about 1763.

These are the children from that marriage on Scotland People

 

** the one John b1791 could be your Ewan, as I saw on one of the family tree in the early days John was use for Ewan.

 

I hope this helps

 

Josephine

Bris. Aust

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joanne Mackay
Sent: Saturday, 11 April 2020 2:56 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

Hi all

 

I am enquiring about my GGGG Grandfather Ewen/Ewan/Ewing/Evan/Even Mackay/McKay/McCay (so many diff spellings).

He died 21/12/1842 at Boggierow, Fordyce. He was an Ag Lab and was born c 1791 in Scotland.

He married  in 1819 at Deskford to Margaret Russel.

 

I have enquired on forums about this family before and don’t want to waste anyone’s time going over info again so I am trying to ask specific questions.

Previous answers have been helpful but I can’t get any traction.

 

I am trying to find out who his parents were and if he died in Boggierow where would he have likely to have been buried.

He was probably poor and didn’t have a headstone and I haven’t found anything in regards to the death cloth (not sure of its proper title).

What would the population of Boggierow be back in 1842? What newspapers would deaths have been reported to in that area?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Jo Mackay in Australia




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Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Goldie & Lido Doratti
 

You need to get on to family search.org or to Scotland’s People and you will find the info you are looking for.  It’s called a Mort Cloth and not all, but most, churches had 2 of them; one was more expensive to rent than the other one.  They were used to cover the coffin or body from the kirk to the graveyard.  They were ‘rented’ and had to be returned to the Kirk (church).  Some of the old Parish Record books have pages of “Mort Cloth Rentals”.....because the church was required to keep an account of income and expenditures.  I have been told that they shouldn’t be in the Parish Record books of Births and Marriages, so some have them, some don’t, and they are evasive.  For example you might find a record saying “Joe Smith’s wife..10 “.........so if you know who Joe Smith’s wife is you would be safe to ‘assume’ she died sometimes before he paid for the Mort Cloth rental, and then could ‘assume’ she had died.  If the death is after 1855 when registration became mandatory in Scotland you can get the death registration from Scotland’s People site.  In 1841 Scotland did the first census, and that may be helpful as well.  Try these.........good luck, Goldie
 

From: Josephine Conray
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 7:50 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death
 

Hi Jo

 

There are a few Family trees on Ancestry for Ewan Mackay but about four have the following information

 

Ewan Mackay Born 1791 Scotland and Died 21 Dec 1842 in Boggierow, Fordyce Scot. Patents William? MacKay/ McKay? And Ann? Gray?

Margaret Russell 23 Jan 1798 and Died 23 Jan 1864 Fordyce Village, Scot.

 

Ewan & Margaret had 10 children

 

I will keep looking so I hope this helps

 

Josephine

Bris, Aust.

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joanne Mackay
Sent: Saturday, 11 April 2020 2:56 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

Hi all

 

I am enquiring about my GGGG Grandfather Ewen/Ewan/Ewing/Evan/Even Mackay/McKay/McCay (so many diff spellings).

He died 21/12/1842 at Boggierow, Fordyce. He was an Ag Lab and was born c 1791 in Scotland.

He married  in 1819 at Deskford to Margaret Russel.

 

I have enquired on forums about this family before and don’t want to waste anyone’s time going over info again so I am trying to ask specific questions.

Previous answers have been helpful but I can’t get any traction.

 

I am trying to find out who his parents were and if he died in Boggierow where would he have likely to have been buried.

He was probably poor and didn’t have a headstone and I haven’t found anything in regards to the death cloth (not sure of its proper title).

What would the population of Boggierow be back in 1842? What newspapers would deaths have been reported to in that area?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Jo Mackay in Australia




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Re: Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Josephine Conray
 

Hi Jo

 

There are a few Family trees on Ancestry for Ewan Mackay but about four have the following information

 

Ewan Mackay Born 1791 Scotland and Died 21 Dec 1842 in Boggierow, Fordyce Scot. Patents William? MacKay/ McKay? And Ann? Gray?

Margaret Russell 23 Jan 1798 and Died 23 Jan 1864 Fordyce Village, Scot.

 

Ewan & Margaret had 10 children

 

I will keep looking so I hope this helps

 

Josephine

Bris, Aust.

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joanne Mackay
Sent: Saturday, 11 April 2020 2:56 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

 

Hi all

 

I am enquiring about my GGGG Grandfather Ewen/Ewan/Ewing/Evan/Even Mackay/McKay/McCay (so many diff spellings).

He died 21/12/1842 at Boggierow, Fordyce. He was an Ag Lab and was born c 1791 in Scotland.

He married  in 1819 at Deskford to Margaret Russel.

 

I have enquired on forums about this family before and don’t want to waste anyone’s time going over info again so I am trying to ask specific questions.

Previous answers have been helpful but I can’t get any traction.

 

I am trying to find out who his parents were and if he died in Boggierow where would he have likely to have been buried.

He was probably poor and didn’t have a headstone and I haven’t found anything in regards to the death cloth (not sure of its proper title).

What would the population of Boggierow be back in 1842? What newspapers would deaths have been reported to in that area?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Jo Mackay in Australia




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Ewan Mackay/McKay-Boggierow death

Joanne Mackay
 

Hi all

 

I am enquiring about my GGGG Grandfather Ewen/Ewan/Ewing/Evan/Even Mackay/McKay/McCay (so many diff spellings).

He died 21/12/1842 at Boggierow, Fordyce. He was an Ag Lab and was born c 1791 in Scotland.

He married  in 1819 at Deskford to Margaret Russel.

 

I have enquired on forums about this family before and don’t want to waste anyone’s time going over info again so I am trying to ask specific questions.

Previous answers have been helpful but I can’t get any traction.

 

I am trying to find out who his parents were and if he died in Boggierow where would he have likely to have been buried.

He was probably poor and didn’t have a headstone and I haven’t found anything in regards to the death cloth (not sure of its proper title).

What would the population of Boggierow be back in 1842? What newspapers would deaths have been reported to in that area?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Jo Mackay in Australia


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Anne Burgess
 

Suggest you forget about Ancestry/FamilySearch/IGI for the moment. They are great as finding aids but they don't hold all of the actual records. Go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and you will be able to view the originals of all the items you have marked as NY or ??.

<quote> G-G-gmother Margaret Sinclair:
P - In 1851 & 1861 shown born in BRACO; in 1871 and 1881 shown born in MUTHILL.</quote.
As Braco is in what is now the parish of Ardoch, but at one time was in the parish of Muthill, the difference in information in the census about Margaret's birthplace is easily explained.

If Margaret was alive and in Scotland in 1881, there should be a death certificate on Scotland's People which should confirm Margaret's parentage.

<quote> IGI shows the marriage for Archibald and Margaret in 1801 in MUTHILL and a son Archibald born 4th of April in MUTHILL. [I have read Muthill register without finding these]</quote>
These events are both in the index at Scotland's People. However if the Muthill OPR was reconstructed 40 years later the marriage date could be a guess based on the DoB of the child. Note that it mentions only the year, not an actual date.

<quote> NY - Archibald born 21 April 1782 in MUCKHART to Henry SINCLAIR and MARY SHARP. </quote>
If that marriage in 1801 is a guess, and Bettridge 1793, Donald 1795, Malcolm 1799, Archibald 1802, Margaret 1804 and John 1806 are all siblings, their father must have been born before 1782. If Mary b 1781 is also a sibling, then this Archibald is plainly not by any stretch of imagination her father.

<quote> 1799 March 24th Archibald Sinclair and Margaret McKENZIE in CLATHICK their child Malcolm" [this is the standard wording in this book and does not appear to suggest they were not married.</quote>
You can be absolutely sure that if they had not been married the register would have made it clear by describing the child as 'natural child' or 'born in uncleanness' or something along those lines.

Under Scots Law a woman does not lose her maiden surname on marriage. Until the early 19th century married women were known by their maiden names. Adopting a husband's surname is a relatively recent practice, but a married woman is described in legal and official records as 'xxx yyy or xxx' wher xxx is her given name, yyy her maiden surname and zzz her husband's surname. This is why you get the mother's surname in baptism records, and why the deaths of a married woman in Scotland is indexed by both her maiden surname and her husband's surname (or indeed the surnames of all her husbands, assuming that whoever registered the death knew them all).

<quote> NY - Archibald Sinclair & Margaret Sinclair Married 1 Aug 1774 COMRIE</quote>
This is irrelevant because Margaret's maiden name is Sinclair and your Margaret's maiden name is McKenzie.

<quote> Margaret Symore [sic] Mafterton Sinclair </quote> That isn't the letter 'f'. It is the 'long s'. It does look like 'f' but if you can compare it with a real 'f' in the same handwriting you will see that it lacks the cross-stroke.

HTH

Anne


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

Anne and Josephine have touched on the original reason why I raised this question.
There is a lot of bad information on line and it can be a lot of work to sort the good out of the bad.
Josephine listed some of the information available on line for my supposed family in the Muthill area; some of it is good, some is bad., but I am trying to prove/disprove each item.

The Muthill records in the late 18th Century are a mixture of clear, ordered listings together with a confused jumble, with gaps. An explanation for the shortage of records was provided on this List in 2007 from "Col in Crieff" [are you still reading this, Col?]: Muthill OPRs were destroyed in the early [19th?] century and the re-written baptisms listed in family groupings which whilst useful is open to error . Finally do not forget Muthill (especially to the north) was a very Episcopalian area and produced a separate baptismal list reproduced by the Rev Hallen covering 1697 to 1847. In 2009 Col posted a more detailed message: "The Muthill OPRs were destroyed by a fire in the Parish Clerk's house! Whether he was sober or not is perhaps a moot point. He seems to have been replaced as a direct outcome. His successor went around gathering details from local residents and posting them in the new register hence the non chronological order that appears with entries in family groupings. There are of course other sources to be followed. Hallen's Episcopal Church (St James) register of baptisms is unique and shows the level of support in the area for the "old kirk". In nearby Crieff a considerable number of entries are not shown on ScotlandsPeople. These are mainly Catholic, Relief and Secession churches whose baptismal records are in Scottish Archives. Some appear as IGIs [on] Family Search web site".

My family's records fall into this group of re-constructed records.

Josephine suggested I list more details and so I will do that now, starting with the most recent first and working backwards in time, indicating records which I have proven (marked "P") by viewing the "original" OPR on microfilm (and have jpg copies filed), together with those which are shown on FamilySearch and Ancestry and not yet proven (marked "NY"), or searched for and found not to be in the original documents (marked "??"). I would appreciate ANY advice on the places or names shown below.

Starting with the marriage of my great-great-grandparents, found in both of their home parishes:
P - Eastwood, Renfrew:
"October 31st, James Murray - cloth lapper - Thornlybank - and Margaret Sinclair in Parish of Muthill were registered for proclamation for 3 days - the above were married at Pollokshaws, 20th November, 1829 by James Pringle, minister"
and
P - Muthill, OPR, 1829, page 138: "James Murray Par. of Eastwood & Margaret Seymour Masterton Sinclair in this Par. Proclaimed Nov 1, Nov 8th, Nov 15. [all other entries on page say in next column "Married", and most show the date and minister who performed marriage; this entry has this column blank, suggesting that it occurred elsewhere]"

G-G-gmother Margaret Sinclair:
P - In 1851 & 1861 shown born in BRACO; in 1871 and 1881 shown born in MUTHILL.
P - Muthill OPR, page 74, in a section in which family groups were recorded as much as 40 years after the baptism of some children, written at least as late as September 1806 (from one entry on the page):
Sinclair: Margaret Symore [sic] Mafterton Sinclair Daughter of the above Archibald Sinclair and Margaret MENZIE [sic] was born 23d April 1804
[NOTE the phrase "above Archibald"; 2 brothers are listed above, on same page, one born 1802 and the other 1806]:
P - "Sinclair: Archibald Son of Archibald Sinclair and Margaret McKENZIE in DUNDUFF was baptized the fourth of April Eighteen hundred and two.
P - John Sinclair their Son born Ninth bapd 17th Augt. 1806"

Margaret's parents' data has not been proven. The following persons may or may not be connected and may represent one, two or even three different couples (or two generations). The coincidence of names in a relatively small locale lends credence to their connection:

?? - IGI shows the marriage for Archibald and Margaret in 1801 in MUTHILL and a son Archibald born 4th of April in MUTHILL. [I have read Muthill register without finding these]

P - MONZIEVAIRD: (film 1040335): "1799 March 24th Archibald Sinclair and Margaret McKENZIE in CLATHICK their child Malcolm" [this is the standard wording in this book and does not appear to suggest they were not married. This register combines marriages & baptisms and I read back to 1790 w/o finding marriage.]

FamilySearch shows another possible match to 2 other children born before the supposed marriage above, christened in COMRIE in 1793 and 1795 from FHL Film 1040075:
NY - Archibald Sinclair & Margaret McKinzie /McKENZIE Married 25 July 1791 COMRIE
NY - Bettridge Baptism 2 June 1793 COMRIE
P - "COMRIE Janury 1795: 10 Archibald Sinclair in GUALNACARRIE and his spouse Margaret McKENZIE had their Lawful son Baptised named ---- Donald"
[FS incorrectly states this birth as June - this is the page I sent to List yesterday]

NY - Archibald born 21 April 1782 in MUCKHART to Henry SINCLAIR and MARY SHARP.

Film no 1040075:
NY - Archibald Sinclair & Margaret Sinclair Married 1 Aug 1774 COMRIE
NY - Helen born 20 Aug 1774 Baptism 30 Oct 1774 COMRIE

-----Original Message-----
From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Anne Burgess via groups.io
Sent: April 6, 2020 4:05 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

I agree.

Bear in mind that the concept of 'correct spelling is largely a 20th century innovation. In the late 18th century there was no such thing as 'correct' spelling.

I looked at that map but didn't go far enough up Glen Artney.

It's one of the exclaves of the parish of Monzievaird and Strowan lying between the parish of Comrie and the parish of Muthill. There were quite a lot of fragmented parishes, but most of them were tidied up in a reorganisation of boundaries in about 1891.

As for the conflicting information in Ancestry, you need to check carefully the origin of each of the details listed. If it's a microfilm of the original parish registers, which are held in Edinburgh and available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, that is a primary source and reliable, although errors are not unknown. If it's from a submitted family tree, or if the marriage dates are a guess by some transcriber based on a date of birth of a child, they are not to be trusted. [b]Never, ever, believe anything you find online unless it's an image of an original primary source.[/b]


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Anne Burgess
 

I agree.

Bear in mind that the concept of 'correct spelling is largely a 20th century innovation. In the late 18th century there was no such thing as 'correct' spelling.

I looked at that map but didn't go far enough up Glen Artney.

It's one of the exclaves of the parish of Monzievaird and Strowan lying between the parish of Comrie and the parish of Muthill. There were quite a lot of fragmented parishes, but most of them were tidied up in a reorganisation of boundaries in about 1891.

As for the conflicting information in Ancestry, you need to check carefully the origin of each of the details listed. If it's a microfilm of the original parish registers, which are held in Edinburgh and available online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, that is a primary source and reliable, although errors are not unknown. If it's from a submitted family tree, or if the marriage dates are a guess by some transcriber based on a date of birth of a child, they are not to be trusted. [b]Never, ever, believe anything you find online unless it's an image of an original primary source.[/b]


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Edie Mc
 

Have you lookedin GENUKI Ken,



Edie McArthur



------ Original Message ------
From: "Ken Harrison" <kenharrison43@...>
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, 4 Apr, 2020 At 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Thank you, John.

I knew that most of those locales were close to Muthill, but I’m still wondering whether they would have been “part of” Muthill and so BDMs would have been recorded in the Muthill register.

And then, Gualnacarrie is still elusive ….
Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 3, 2020 3:46 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)

On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

 

   

--
EdieMc


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

Thank you, Seymour.  The link to the name books is interesting.  It still doesn’t list Culnacurie, but then the advice is that it had disappeared before mid-19th Century.

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Seymour Hosking
Sent: April 4, 2020 12:04 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Hi Ken FamilySearch gives some clues on Muthill Parish and Comrie Parish.  If your family are like mine, they might have gone to different churches at different times.   And have you seen the Name Books? Not much there that helps.  And I can't find Gualnacarrie. regards Seymour
 


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

I was about to reply to Jack that, although it took me a long time to find it, Culnacuries looks like the best bet to be Gualnacarrie.  It’s in the right general area, and who knows which spelling is “correct”.  Then John’s input cemented this.  Thank you to both!

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 5, 2020 3:05 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

I have to agree with Jack that Culnacuries is by far the best contender for Gualnacarrie in areas that might have been associated with Muthill.  The exact view on the NLS website is:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400315
and I attach an extract from it.  On the extract, Comrie is towards the right hand side near the top.  Follow the Ruchill Water south west from Comrie until it goes across the join in the map, and Culnacuries is just below the river at that point.  The only named place in that vicinity that is still shown on the 1866 OS map is Auchinner, a short distance to the west of Culnacuries.

Well found, Jack.  I was too hung up on finding an Ordnance Survey map and did not look in the Counties of Scotland category in the map series dropdown menu.

John

On 05/04/2020 00:55, paisley.jack via groups.io wrote:

Ken,
This is a rather wild guess, so very possibly wrong.
There is a similar name to Gualnacarrie.

It looks to be a farmstead - Culnacuries.
And is SW of Comrie village.
(in part of Strowan Parish 1783) (Monzievaird & Strowan 1805)
It's quite near the parish borders of both Comrie and Muthill.
But the name seems to have disappeared by the 1860s.

https://maps.nls.uk/
(The Counties of Perth and Clackmannan. Jas. Stobbie 1783 / 1805)

Jack