Date   

Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Jack Mills
 

Ken,
This is a rather wild guess, so very possibly wrong.
There is a similar name to Gualnacarrie.

It looks to be a farmstead - Culnacuries.
And is SW of Comrie village.
(in part of Strowan Parish 1783) (Monzievaird & Strowan 1805)
It's quite near the parish borders of both Comrie and Muthill.
But the name seems to have disappeared by the 1860s.

https://maps.nls.uk/
(The Counties of Perth and Clackmannan. Jas. Stobbie 1783 / 1805)

Jack


Muthill and Comrie

Janet Farmer
 

Hi Ken: I typed in Muthill Perthshire and got a really good site with pictures of the church  and also heads of household etc.

I think that the name Cumrie at the top of the page might indicate that information  was being carried forward from the previous page:  I found the following names 
Robert Comrie Muthill
Peter Comrie Dargill


Cheers
Janet


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

Thank you to all who have offered help so far.  I see now why I was puzzled.

I have viewed a film showing the Muthill parish registers (Spine of book clearly says “Muthill – B1704-1819; M1676-1761”) and page 242 appears to be headed Comrie in 1795.

Perhaps I have misread this word, but nothing else comes to mind.

I will try to attach part of the page, showing the heading and also 2 entries on the page which refer to Gualnacarrie.

Can any of you interpret this page differently?

Ken

 

Sent: April 4, 2020 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

Cheers

Josephine

 

Sent: Saturday, 4 April 2020 7:52 AM
Subject: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

Ken Harrison


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

I sent a reply to this, with an image, a couple of hours ago but it has not yet come to me.

Did anyone else see it?

Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Josephine Conray
Sent: April 4, 2020 4:03 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Hi Ken

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust.

 


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Josephine Conray
 

Hi Ken

Can you send more information on Archibald Sinclair date of birth, parents, wife we might be able to find the family. If you look for the family you might be able to find the place.

Is he connected to Sir John Sinclair the politician?

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust.

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison
Sent: Saturday, 4 April 2020 7:52 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada




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Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Anne Burgess
 

I know it very well. When I was a child we often went to St Fillans (in the parish of Comrie), where the owner of the hotel was a friend of my parents. Later, my aunt and uncle retired to Comrie and I often visited them there. I also lived in Perth for several years and drove to Loch Earn every Sunday in the sailing season for much of that time. My job in Perth entailed knowing all of the county pretty well.

Comrie, Muthill, Monzievaird-and-Strowan and Trinity-Gask are all parishes in the County of Perth aka Perthshire. You can see a list and links to the Statistical Accounts of each of these at https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/county/Perth, and a link to a map of the county showing the boundaries of the parishes in 1832.

The parish of Comrie was not part of the parish of Muthill. However the village of Comrie is right at the eastern extremity of its parish, very close to the boundaries with Muthill, Monzievaird and Strowan.

However there could be places called Comrie in other parishes as well as the parish and village of that name in Perthshire. I know of one in the parish of Torryburn, Fife and one in the parish of Contin, Ross and Cromarty, but I am not aware of any others in other parishes in Perthshire.

You can see a list of places in the parish of Muthill at https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/perthshire-os-name-books-1859-1862/perthshire-volume-62/1 (there are transcriptions below the images of the information in the images).

Clathick is in the parish of Monzievaird and Strowan, about two miles east of the village of Comrie. Modern map https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NN8022
Mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&;lat=56.38360&lon=-3.93990&layers=5&b=1

Gualnacarrie continues to defeat me.If the reference is from the Muthill parish register, then it must be in that parish or very close to the parish boundary. What exactly does the extract say? Have you looked at other baptisms in the same family? Where do they say the family home was?


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

John Kemplen
 

Hi Ken

Muthill is a small place, smaller than Comrie and much smaller than Crieff.  I would be very surprised if these other places had ever come under Muthill for any administrative purpose.  The only parish I have come across that was for a while part of Muthill is Ardoch.

I have looked at a mid-1800s Ordnance Survey six inch to the mile map of the area and have not found anywhere that looks or sounds anything like Gualnacarrie.  I do not believe there are any earlier map series out there to give place names that were changed or disappeared later.  The name is not listed in Scotland's places or on Canmore (the archaeological site website).

John



On 04/04/2020 00:24, Ken Harrison wrote:

Thank you, John.

I knew that most of those locales were close to Muthill, but I’m still wondering whether they would have been “part of” Muthill and so BDMs would have been recorded in the Muthill register.

And then, Gualnacarrie is still elusive ….
Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 3, 2020 3:46 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)

On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

 





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Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

 

Hi Ken FamilySearch gives some clues on Muthill Parish and Comrie Parish.  If your family are like mine, they might have gone to different churches at different times.   And have you seen the Name Books? Not much there that helps.  And I can't find Gualnacarrie. regards Seymour
 


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

Thank you, John.

I knew that most of those locales were close to Muthill, but I’m still wondering whether they would have been “part of” Muthill and so BDMs would have been recorded in the Muthill register.

And then, Gualnacarrie is still elusive ….
Ken

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Kemplen via groups.io
Sent: April 3, 2020 3:46 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)

On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada

 


Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

John Kemplen
 

Oops, sorry Ken, the old maps are on the National Library of Scotland website, not Scotland's Places or Canmore.

John



On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada





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Re: COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

John Kemplen
 

Ken

You can find all of these places except Gualnacarrie with a simple search on Google Maps.  A few miles west of Perth you come to the small town of Crieff, and most of the places you mention are outlying villages, hamlets or individual properties.  Travelling west from Crieff along the main A85 road you find Loch Monzievaird, then Monzievaird House, the you cross the Clathick Burn and then a bit further on you come to the small town / large village of Comrie.  Back at Crieff, if you head south on the A822 road you find Muthill and if you head east from Muthill back towards Perth you find Trinity Gask (which appears also to be called Kirkton).  Gualnacarrie may not exist any more or may have changed its spelling.  Maybe you would be able to find it in the vicinity of one or other of the other places by looking at the 19th Century maps that you can access on the Scotland's Places website or the Canmore website.

John (only very tenuous connections to Perthshire)


On 03/04/2020 22:51, Ken Harrison wrote:

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada





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COMRIE parish or MUTHILL?

Ken Harrison
 

I’d appreciate advice from someone who knows Perthshire.

I’m looking at a page in a book which is named parochial registers of MUTHILL, Perth but the writing at the top of the register page says “COMRIE January 1795”.

Was COMRIE part of MUTHILL?  What other locales were also in MUTHILL?

The entry I am interested in is for an Archibald SINCLAIR “in GUALNACARRIE”.

Does anyone know what/where was Gualnacarrie?  And how it relates to CLATHICK, MONZIEVAIRD or TRINITY GASK?  [The family seems to have moved a lot]

 

Ken Harrison

North Vancouver, Canada


Re: Maiden surnames

Anne Burgess
 

Somewhere in this thread someone wrote, "It is a relatively modern thing, and not just in Scotland, for married women to continue to use their maiden surname."

This is incorrect and potentially misleading for other researchers. Throughout history and until the early part of the 19th century married women in Scotland were known by their maiden surnames. See my post on the other thread on this same topic. This is why the mother's maiden surname appears in baptism records, and why married women appear in the earliest censusus by their middle names. It is also why married woman are indexed by all their surnames in the deaths indexes, and why the indexes can include the maiden surname of the deceased's mother from 1974 onwards. By the end of the 19th century, however, it had become common for married women to be known by their husbands' surnames. There has been a resurgence in very recent years of married woman retaining their maiden surnames, but it is most certainly not a 'modern thing'. The 'modern thing' in the 19th and 20th century in Scotland was adopting a husband's surname.


Re: Unity Simpson

Josephine Conray
 

Hi Ken

Thank you for your information. I am not related to this family.

I was trying to help Ian MacLeod with some information as I do have Ancestry and Happy to help anyone. I did not find much so I am sure he will be able to get something out of your email.

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld Aust.

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 1:56 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

Ian & Josephine:

I’m very interested in this thread, even tho I may not be able to add much.

I have a lot of McVorans (various spellings) in my database, including many (like my own direct line) who changed the name to Morrison (and one or two to McMoran).

I do not have a Dougald, and so have no direct info for you (but see below).

My earliest proven ancestor in this line was Grace M(a)cVoran, who married under that name in 1816 to Duncan M(a)cNabb and started using the name Morrison in baptism records some time between 1825 and 1830.

Grace was born about 1791 (according to 1851 census) but I have never found a baptism or any indication of the names or home of her parents.  I have looked for her as both Grace and Grizzel, and as both McVoran and Morrison.

 

One suggestion I have come across, but have not been able to check, is that some McVorans came from Jura.

In that regard, I do have a note about your family, from John Gillies <john.gillies@...> who sent 25 May 2010 to Islay List:

“John McVorran who married Unity (Una) Simpson is recorded as the tenant of Island farm, Kilarow 1774-80-99   Children:

      Dugal & John McVorran, B: Bowmore 1783

      Jene (Jane) McVorran. B:  Jura 1787?, D: 1862, Camden, NSW, Australia.

In 1807 Jean married Donald McIndeor (McAlister) B: 1778?, D: 1835 and buried at Kilarow Cemetery.

Donald and Jean continued as tenants of Island farm until his death in 1835.   Jean and almost all her children then moved to Australia, where they promptly changed the family name to McAlister.”

The quoted material above seems to me to suggest that John and Unity commuted from Islay to Jura and back again during the 1780s.

 

I would be cautious about the 1860 death below, and not assume it is for the correct John.  While it is not unknown for ages at death to be incorrect, there is a 5-year discrepancy shown for the birth.

In my data I have another John McVoran b. abt 1781, who lived most of his life at Ballychatrigin.  John was a very common name.

Ken Harrison

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Josephine Conray
Sent: March 27, 2020 9:17 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

Hi Ian

There does not seen to be any information on either of the boys. This is the only thing on John Birth & Death.

 

Will keep looking

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust

 

 

 

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name:

John Mcvorran

Gender:

Male

Baptism Date:

6 Nov 1783

Baptism Place:

, Killarrow, Argyll, Scotland

Father:

John Mcvorran

Mother:

Una Simson

FHL Film Number:

1041078

Reference ID:

- 2:15CGPVF

 

 

Deaths

 

Name:

 

 

John McVorran

Birth Date:

1788

Death Date:

1860

Cemetery:

Kilmeny Old Churchyard

Burial or Cremation Place:

Isle of Islay, Argyll and Bute, Scotland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of ianmac1@...
Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2020 9:51 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

I am seeking information on Unity Simpson b1765, possibly on Islay, who married John McVorran b1760. They had at least 3 children, 2 brothers John McVorran b1783 d1860 and Dougald also b1783 and 1 sister Jene or Jane McVorran b1782 Bowmore, Islay, d12/2/1862 at Glendareul, Camden, NSW, Australia. Married Donald McIndeor b1790 d1836 in Bowmore. I have the full information on Jene but nothing on the brothers and the mother, ant help would be appreciated.

Ian MacLeod

Taree, NSW, Australia

 


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McVORANs

Malcolm Campbell
 

My Margaret McVORAN changed her name to MORRISON.
 
She married Peter CURRIE, d, on March of 1835. He was killed by a falling tree on the 5 acre lots in Nottawasaga Twp.,  Duntroon, Ontario.
 
They had 5 children in 11 years.
 
John "Black John" was born in 1816 in Parish, New York, who passed away in 1877 at the age of 61 in Nottawasage Twp.
 
Her daughter Marion was born on August 19, 1819.
 
Her daughter Margaret was born in 1819.
 
Her daughter Ann was born in 1821.
 
Her son James was born in 1827.
 
Happy hunting
 
Malcolm Campbell
 
 

Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson
 

Ian & Josephine:

I’m very interested in this thread, even tho I may not be able to add much.

I have a lot of McVorans (various spellings) in my database, including many (like my own direct line) who changed the name to Morrison (and one or two to McMoran).

I do not have a Dougald, and so have no direct info for you (but see below).

My earliest proven ancestor in this line was Grace M(a)cVoran, who married under that name in 1816 to Duncan M(a)cNabb and started using the name Morrison in baptism records some time between 1825 and 1830.

Grace was born about 1791 (according to 1851 census) but I have never found a baptism or any indication of the names or home of her parents.  I have looked for her as both Grace and Grizzel, and as both McVoran and Morrison.

 

One suggestion I have come across, but have not been able to check, is that some McVorans came from Jura.

In that regard, I do have a note about your family, from John Gillies <john.gillies@...> who sent 25 May 2010 to Islay List:

John McVorran who married Unity (Una) Simpson is recorded as the tenant of Island farm, Kilarow 1774-80-99   Children:

      Dugal & John McVorran, B: Bowmore 1783

      Jene (Jane) McVorran. B:  Jura 1787?, D: 1862, Camden, NSW, Australia.

In 1807 Jean married Donald McIndeor (McAlister) B: 1778?, D: 1835 and buried at Kilarow Cemetery.

Donald and Jean continued as tenants of Island farm until his death in 1835.   Jean and almost all her children then moved to Australia, where they promptly changed the family name to McAlister.

The quoted material above seems to me to suggest that John and Unity commuted from Islay to Jura and back again during the 1780s.

 

I would be cautious about the 1860 death below, and not assume it is for the correct John.  While it is not unknown for ages at death to be incorrect, there is a 5-year discrepancy shown for the birth.

In my data I have another John McVoran b. abt 1781, who lived most of his life at Ballychatrigin.  John was a very common name.

Ken Harrison

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Josephine Conray
Sent: March 27, 2020 9:17 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

Hi Ian

There does not seen to be any information on either of the boys. This is the only thing on John Birth & Death.

 

Will keep looking

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust

 

 

 

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name:

John Mcvorran

Gender:

Male

Baptism Date:

6 Nov 1783

Baptism Place:

, Killarrow, Argyll, Scotland

Father:

John Mcvorran

Mother:

Una Simson

FHL Film Number:

1041078

Reference ID:

- 2:15CGPVF

 

 

Deaths

 

Name:

 

 

John McVorran

Birth Date:

1788

Death Date:

1860

Cemetery:

Kilmeny Old Churchyard

Burial or Cremation Place:

Isle of Islay, Argyll and Bute, Scotland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Unity Simpson

Ken Harrison
 

Ian & Josephine:

I’m very interested in this thread, even tho I may not be able to add much.

I have a lot of McVorans (various spellings) in my database, including many (like my own direct line) who changed the name to Morrison (and one or two to McMoran).

I do not have a Dougald, and so have no direct info for you (but see below).

My earliest proven ancestor in this line was Grace M(a)cVoran, who married under that name in 1816 to Duncan M(a)cNabb and started using the name Morrison in baptism records some time between 1825 and 1830.

Grace was born about 1791 (according to 1851 census) but I have never found a baptism or any indication of the names or home of her parents.  I have looked for her as both Grace and Grizzel, and as both McVoran and Morrison.

 

One suggestion I have come across, but have not been able to check, is that some McVorans came from Jura.

In that regard, I do have a note about your family, from John Gillies <john.gillies@...> who sent 25 May 2010 to Islay List:

John McVorran who married Unity (Una) Simpson is recorded as the tenant of Island farm, Kilarow 1774-80-99   Children:

      Dugal & John McVorran, B: Bowmore 1783

      Jene (Jane) McVorran. B:  Jura 1787?, D: 1862, Camden, NSW, Australia.

In 1807 Jean married Donald McIndeor (McAlister) B: 1778?, D: 1835 and buried at Kilarow Cemetery.

Donald and Jean continued as tenants of Island farm until his death in 1835.   Jean and almost all her children then moved to Australia, where they promptly changed the family name to McAlister.

The quoted material above seems to me to suggest that John and Unity commuted from Islay to Jura and back again during the 1780s.

 

I would be cautious about the 1860 death below, and not assume it is for the correct John.  While it is not unknown for ages at death to be incorrect, there is a 5-year discrepancy shown for the birth.

In my data I have another John McVoran b. abt 1781, who lived most of his life at Ballychatrigin.  John was a very common name.

Ken Harrison

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io <Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io> On Behalf Of Josephine Conray
Sent: March 27, 2020 9:17 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

Hi Ian

There does not seen to be any information on either of the boys. This is the only thing on John Birth & Death.

 

Will keep looking

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld. Aust

 

 

 

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name:

John Mcvorran

Gender:

Male

Baptism Date:

6 Nov 1783

Baptism Place:

, Killarrow, Argyll, Scotland

Father:

John Mcvorran

Mother:

Una Simson

FHL Film Number:

1041078

Reference ID:

- 2:15CGPVF

 

 

Deaths

 

Name:

 

 

John McVorran

Birth Date:

1788

Death Date:

1860

Cemetery:

Kilmeny Old Churchyard

Burial or Cremation Place:

Isle of Islay, Argyll and Bute, Scotland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of ianmac1@...
Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2020 9:51 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

I am seeking information on Unity Simpson b1765, possibly on Islay, who married John McVorran b1760. They had at least 3 children, 2 brothers John McVorran b1783 d1860 and Dougald also b1783 and 1 sister Jene or Jane McVorran b1782 Bowmore, Islay, d12/2/1862 at Glendareul, Camden, NSW, Australia. Married Donald McIndeor b1790 d1836 in Bowmore. I have the full information on Jene but nothing on the brothers and the mother, ant help would be appreciated.

Ian MacLeod

Taree, NSW, Australia

 


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Re: Maiden surnames

Les Horn
 

Unlike England and Wales a woman retains her Own/Maiden name upon Marriage.  It is usually as a matter of convenience that she takes her husbands Surname.  This is very useful when looking at gravestones as in England her married name is shown whereas, in Scotland, her Own/Maiden name is shown.  This is also to researchers advantage when searching the Scottish Statutory Death Records (on SP - ScotlandsPeople) as she is indexed under both her Married and her Own/Maiden Name.


Re: Maiden Name or Married Name

Anne Burgess
 
Edited

I have never heard of anything quite so formal.

It is perfectly true that a married woman in Scotland doed not legally change her surname. In all later documents she is formally referred to as 'xxx yyy or zzz' where 'xxx' is her given name, 'yyy' her own maiden surname and 'zzz' her husband's surname. She may of course had had more than one husband, so 'zzz' could be 'zzz1 or zzz2 or ....'

This is why the mother's maiden surname is usually included in baptism records (if the mother is named at all!), why the gravestones of married women usually show their maiden surnames, and why married women are indexed by maiden surname and the surnames of all husbands in the Scottish death indexes, assuming that the informant was able to supply all this information of course.

It is unusual for a married woman in the 18th century, and even the early 19th, to be referred to be her husband's surname. I have seen many baptisms like this one: "1748, September 11th. William lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks and Mrs Anne Duff his spouse was baptized." [Rothes Parish Register] or death notices like this one: "Died at Newton of Duffus on the 3d inst Mrs Margaret Mason, relict of the late Mr William Leslie, tailor there, aged 85." [Forres, Elgin and Nairn Gazette]

Mrs, the abbreviation for Mistress, would have been fully pronounced as 'mistress', not 'missis', and the full title was applied to all women, married or single. Think of Carolina Oliphant's poem,'The Laird of Cockpen' when the proud pompous self-important suitor comes wooing and says "Gae tell Mistress Jean to come speedily ben ..." (full text at https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/laird-o-cockpen/, and sung by Kenneth McKellar at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLYP7I9rVFU)

In some early census records wives are recorded by their maiden surnames, and widows even more frequently. They also remarried using their maiden surname, like this example: "1834, 26th June. James Hay merchant in Arbroath and Margaret Sang, widow, residing in Timber Market in this parish were contracted in order to marriage and having been regularly proclaimed were married the 30th June." [Brechin Parish Register] Margaret Sang was the daughter of Alexander Sang and his wife Margaret Mill, and the widow of Andrew Watt, whom she had married in 1812.


Re: Unity Simpson

Josephine Conray
 

Hi Ian

 

This is the only thing that I can find on your Dougald. There are 23 family trees on Ancestry for Dugal but they all have the same information Baptise at Killarrow, Argyll and born 6 nov 1783 at Bowmore, Islay.

 

I cannot find any  information on Unity other them one family tree has her as Unity Simpson b 1765 Scotland AKA Una Simson.  But nothing came up on Ancestry or Scotland People for her.

 

There is a family tree for John McVonnan b 1760 Scotland and it state his parents are  Duncan McVorn and Mary McCallun. Once again could not find anything  search under  all spelling names on both sites but no luck.

 

Spelling for McVorran,  McVoran  and McVorn

Spelling for Simpson and Simson

 

There are a couple  marriages for both a John & Dugal McVorran but they would be about 35 years old when they got married. If you want the names & date just let me know.

 

I sorry I cannot help

 

Cheers

Josephine

Qld Aust.

 

 

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

 

 

Name:

Dugal Mcvorran

Gender:

Male

Baptism Date:

6 Nov 1783

Baptism Place:

, Killarrow, Argyll, Scotland

Father:

John Mcvorran

Mother:

Una Simson

FHL Film Number:

1041078

Reference ID:

- 2:15CGPT7

 

 

 

 

His Birth 06 NOV 1783 Bowmore, Islay, Scotland

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of ianmac1@...
Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2020 9:51 AM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: [ScotGen] Unity Simpson

 

I am seeking information on Unity Simpson b1765, possibly on Islay, who married John McVorran b1760. They had at least 3 children, 2 brothers John McVorran b1783 d1860 and Dougald also b1783 and 1 sister Jene or Jane McVorran b1782 Bowmore, Islay, d12/2/1862 at Glendareul, Camden, NSW, Australia. Married Donald McIndeor b1790 d1836 in Bowmore. I have the full information on Jene but nothing on the brothers and the mother, ant help would be appreciated.

Ian MacLeod

Taree, NSW, Australia




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Re: Maiden surnames

John Kemplen
 

Hi Jocelyn

Good advice.  We have to be open to all possibilities in our genealogical research.  It's so easy to hit brick walls that we need to be looking at all possible ways round them, not letting dogma blind us.

John


On 27/03/2020 23:34, Jocelyn Gould wrote:

Hi John - another aspect to consider - in the 1841 Census for Inverness-shire my 2xgtgm was listed under her maiden surname and children under father's surname.  I investigated this and found that the wife retained her surname where there was property involved and in fact, husbands changed their name to hers in cases of large heritable estates.

My gtgm buried in Inverness-shire in 1917 is known by her maiden surname but it is stated that she was the wife of .........  who died before her and thus is at the top of the inscription.

The take-away from this - don't be pedantic about what it 'should' be - just go with the flow.

Take care everyone as we navigate through these challenging times.

Jocelyn

On 27/03/2020 7:37 pm, John Kemplen via Groups.Io wrote:

Interesting what different experiences and recollections we have of this.  In spite of what I said earlier about women being known by their married surnames, I agree totally with what Ken says about women being known informally among friends by their maiden name.  In island communities (my experience is almost all of Islay), where you fit in to the scheme of things is very important.  Even now, when I visit, I get interrogated to establish exactly who my mother was and which families we connect with by birth and by marriage.  It seems to play a major part in bonding as a community.

Regarding records, I do not have enough knowledge of the situation in the 1700s and early 1800s to agree or disagree with Goldie's assertions, but in all the Scottish census records I have seen from 1841 onwards, all family members including the wife are identified by the surname of the husband, and where a mother is identified in BMD records, the heading on the form asks for "name and maiden surname", clearly implying that, in official circles at least, the woman's current surname is that of her husband.

We all seem to share the same experience of conventions regarding headstones, with both maiden and married surnames being identifiable by one means or another.  My mother's headstone in the beautiful graveyard at Luss refers to her as "Mary Campbell MacKellar, beloved wife of Herbert R. Kemplen".  As has been said, that is very helpful for genealogical research.

John


On 27/03/2020 03:19, Ken Harrison wrote:
When my great aunt died in 1975 near Ft. William, her Will was in the name of “maiden name OR married name”.  She told me that she was known informally by her husband’s name, but her old friends still called her by her maiden name, even 60 years after marriage.
Most of my ancestors in Lanark, Orkney & Islay were recorded in most records in the 1700s & 1800s with maiden name only, including after they arrived in Canada, where their headstones tend to show only the maiden name and “wife of ...”

Ken iPad

On Mar 26, 2020, at 7:38 PM, Goldie & Lido Doratti <lidogold2@...> wrote:


I beg to differ.......in the 1700/1800 era most women retained their maiden names after marriage.  You will see on some census info this is so..NOT ALL, but for example, if the woman was a Smith, she was known as a Smith, but she was also known as the Wife of John Doe.....on the tomb stone you will likely see his name first, if he died first and then ‘his wife  .... Smith’.  You are right to think it makes it easier for us doing genealogy to find folks.  Again, NOT all women did this, but it was a common thing for the woman to retain her maiden name.  She was likely proud of her forbearers.  To carry the man’s name is a more modern thing.  The maiden name also denoted the Clan or Sept of 5Clan she belonged to.  Goldie
 
From: John Kemplen via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 4:01 PM
To: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] McEwing/Stewart/McCaig/Wallace—Islay/ Campbeltown
 

I don't think it is quite like that.  Most married Scottish women have, for many years, ALWAYS been known by their married surname while they are alive and it is ONLY on their headstones when they are dead that they are called by their maiden surname.  Because their husband's name also tends to appear for one reason or another on the headstone, it is usually possible to identify them by either their maiden or their married name.  It is a relatively modern thing, and not just in Scotland, for married women to continue to use their maiden surname.

 

On 26/03/2020 22:10, LorneandJudy wrote:
And, that is why, they are named by their maiden name on headstones. So helpful, for us into genealogy.
JudyAnderson
BC Canada


On Mar 25, 2020, at 4:19 PM, Gillie Lomax mailto:gillielomax365@... wrote:


Hello everyone - I have found from my Scottish ancestry that many women retain their maiden surname even when married which makes tracing them so much easier, Gillie Lomax.
 
On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 03:22, Josephine Conray <javc@...> wrote:

Hi Lola

 

I have search Ancestry and Scotland people. And found the following information it might be yours and it might not, but it something you can work on.

 

On the 1901 Census it state Catherine McEwing, age 44 her son Robert born 1887in Campbeltown, he is 14 years old and a Gardener’s Apprentice. It seems that she used her married name most of the time maybe it was it was Robert or her family that buried her under her madam name.

 

Hugh Stewart born Aug 1846/7 Teasdale / Islay Argyll and Died year 1921 age 74 Ref/no 507/7 Cambeltown, Married 1 Dec 1885 Catherine McEwing

 

Hugh parents are John Stewart 1814 Kilarrow, Argyll  and Mary McCaig b10 Dec 1816 Bowmore, Islay, Argyll & died 2 Dec 1872 Bowmore, Argyll they had 5 Children

 

John Stewart 1814 parents were  Donald Stewart & Betsy Brown. They were married 27 Mar 1806 Killarrow, Argyll.

 

 

Catherine McEwing born 10 May 1857 Campbeltown and died 18 May 1921 Campbeltown . Death under the name of Catherine McEwing, age 64 Death 1921 Ref/no 507/42 Campbeltown

 

Her Parents Joseph McEwing 24/7/1828 Campbeltown , Argyll and Died14 /6/ 1888, Campbeltowm, Argyll  married 13 Dec 1853 Campbeltown Argyll Film No 1041005 to

Mary Wallace 6 Jan 1829 Carradale, Argyll and died 7 Nov 1895.

 

Joseph parents were John McEwing 28 Jan 1807 Islay and died 22march 1869 and Flora Stevenson 1797 Islay, died 17 Oct 1866

 

Mary Parents were John Wallace 5 Mat 1793  Killean & Kilchenzie and deid about 1851-1855 & Margaret Gilchrist born 26 March 1802 Kilcalmonell Argyll and Died 10 Aug 1861 South Beachmore, Argyll Scotland.

 

I hope this helps

Josephine

Qld Aust.

 

 

From: Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io [mailto:Scots@Scotland-Genealogy.groups.io] On Behalf Of Cas Houston
Sent: Tuesday, 24 March 2020 1:40 AM
To: Scots@scotland-genealogy.groups.io
Subject: Re: [ScotGen] McEwing/Stewart/McCaig/Wallace—Islay/ Campbeltown

 

Looks like Hugh and his wife both died in Campbeltown in 1921.

 

On Sun, 22 Mar 2020, 6:02 pm Lola Cook, <lola.cook@...> wrote:


Still trying to find out what happened to my elusive Grandfather, Hugh Stewart, born 1846 on Islay, married Catherine McEwing 1885 in Campbeltown then disappeared.
Lola Cook






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